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Post by hydraheadhunter on Jan 3, 2023 2:50:24 GMT
I have a lot of contrarian opinions about a lot of things, and the color pie's themes and mechanics are no exception. I have a lot of contrarian opinions about them. So, how's this turn into a challenge? What's the game? The theme is in presenting prompts which challenge the color pie, forcing you to find creative ways to bend or break the color. For mechanical example: Prompts could also challenge you to make cards that break or bend a color's themes . Regardless of the specific prompt, the goal is to make believable magic cards that are breaks or bends of the current established color pie in some way.
Standard long form challenge rules: A prompt is issued, entries are made, the prompter judges the entries and picks a winner, the winner issues the next prompt.
Going first then, lets pick one of the examples Green Counter Magic Bonus points if your Green counter magic actually says "Counter target spell" instead of skirting that verbage psuedo-countering through hexproof fizzling. Running list of previous prompts - Green Counter Magic
- White Ramp (no treasure)
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Post by lordpat on Jan 3, 2023 3:11:56 GMT
You want green counter spell? I'll give you green counter spell. Spell Strike  Instant  Counter target noncreature spell if it's mana value is less than the greatest power among creatures you control. The other pack members thought he was just biting the air, but he knew better. |
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Post by ZephyrPhantom on Jan 3, 2023 3:18:20 GMT
Falcon Punch  Instant Cast ~ only if a blue or black instant spell is on the stack. Counter target spell. "Faster than the wittiest koan. Also more painful." - Sensei Hawk-Fist
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Post by Idea on Jan 3, 2023 12:44:23 GMT
This one is definitely the kind of challenge that makes me want to take a lore based-approach. So the question is what is countering? Why would green magic not normally use it and why would it now use it? Countering is effectively preventing a spell from being complete, thus preventing something from coming into existence. It's not removing something that already exists because that would be killing it, bouncing it or exiling it. Blue normally does this through its ability to interact with parts of magic many others wouldn't even think of, either due to the intimate knowledge it has of magic itself or through some kind of esoteric or experimental aspect. white and colorless have the second most foot in countering, with white using warding and rules to partially block out spells (typically either conditionally or giving compensation) while colorless either seems to use eldrazi's nature or materials with certain properties. Red and green mostly seem to use shock value (AKA brute force) to interrupt spells or otherwise countering the nature of the spell itself. Of the modern examples of a green straight up counter card though, what I was able to find was Pistus Strike. Now granted, this card is phyrexian, but I think there is still something which can be garnered from it and green's general philosophy: If countering is the natural state of things, then green will promote it. So if something that is part of the natural world happens to interfere with spellcasting, green is still all for it.  |
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Post by Daij_Djan on Jan 3, 2023 16:38:01 GMT
You didn't say monogreen.. 
No seriously, I hope this one is fine. It'd definitely work just fine as a gold card, but as a hybrid card it's at least a bend for sure. I really wanted to keep it in greenwhite for flavor reasons - but as it can be cast for , I think it's a valid entry. |
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Post by Flo00 on Jan 3, 2023 17:35:13 GMT
Canopy Elemental  Creature - Elemental Reach, hexproof from artifacts and enchantments , Sacrifice Canopy Elemental: Counter target creature spell with flying. 4/4
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Post by hydraheadhunter on Jan 4, 2023 0:58:37 GMT
It's only been, 20 hours, but five six entries feels like more than enough, and I know if don't do it now, I'm liable as always to forget I'm in charge of something (note to self, check if I'm responsible for any challenges right now after this post). So let's get this ball rolling. {Judging} lordpat
| no render provided
| Spell Strike
A Green
Instant
Counter target noncreature spell if it's mana value is less than the greatest power among creatures you control.
FT: The other pack members thought he was just biting the air, but he knew better. | A nice simple counter spell with very green limitation basing its effectiveness on your creature's size.
It works, although I don't think I'd ever want green counter magic to be cheap enough to put on an isochron sceptor. It's annoying enough when blue does it.
| | ZephyrPhantom | no render provided
| Falcon Punch
A Generic and Two Green
Instant
Cast Falcon Punch only if a blue or black instant spell is on the stack.
Counter target spell.
FT: "Faster than the wittiest koan. Also more painful." - Sensei Hawk-Fist | Nice and simple enemy hatred mirroring Autumn's Veil. It makes sense in that red gets a lot of enemy hatred counter magic in the form of red elemental blast, pyroblast, etc.
Why shouldn't green get a chance to hate on blue too.
| | Idea | | Hungering Leylines
Two generic and Three green
Enchantment — Aura
Enchant land
Enchanted land has "counter the first instant or sourcery spell each player casts each turn. Whenever a spell is countered this way, you gain one mana of any color this land could produce. Until end of of turn, you don't lose this mana as steps and phases end."
| This critique is probably gonna sound harsh, and I don't mean it to be harsh. I just think it might sound that way, but I want to clarify that while I call it an example of 'a break that goes too far' I don't think it's a bad entry into the challenge.
It's a new challenge and because the nature of this challenge is based in the inherently wibbly abstract idea of the color pie, which everyone's got different opinions about (I made the challenge cause I've got contrarian opinions about it), the lines defining what's a bend, what's a reasonable break, and what's a break that goes too far are ultimately gonna be drawn in the sand using examples, and this is a good example of a break that, for me at least, goes too far.
While it feels like a very green way of doing something green doesn't typically do, it's doing way too good a job of it. The downside for you half of Jin-Gitaxias, Progress tyrant is a a counter ability of about the same power level, and Jin-Gitaxias costs 7. Getting what is effectively the stronger half of Jin-gitaxias on an enchantment (which are harder to deal with than creatures), for less mana as a break, is just too much no matter how well you flavor it, yeah?
To feel justifiable, color breaks generally need to be weaker than their on-color counterparts as well as have appropriately flavoring. This effect, as written would in my opinion cost green some 10-12 mana to be fair, which of course would make it completely unworkable in most formats.
You could probably make this effect work with rewrites, but as stands, it's just too good a counter effect to be both priced fairly in green and viable.
| | Daij_Djan | 
| Conclave's Banishment
Three Green or White
Instant
Choose target spell. Populate, then counter the chosen spell unless it's controller pays a generic for each creature you control.
| First, addressing the hybrid mana thing, I'm of the opinion, contrary to the rules committee, that these sorts of cards are psuedo mono-colored, meaning that during deck creation they can be counted as one color or the other, and I ought be able to put them in either monocolored deck.
I didn't say mono-green you're correct, but, even if I had, as far as I'm concerned, this might as well be considered both a mono-green card (satisfying the prompt) and a mono-white card (ignored during deck construction), yeah?
I should note, I wouldn't have let you get away with it with if it'd been a simic spell, because then by introducing blue, the card's just doing what one of it's colors does, but counter magic is at most a tertiary thing white gets to do sometimes as a little treat, so even reading it as a mono-white card, it'd still be at least a bend.
All that color stuff out of the way (and I'm really glad you brought it up early so we get a precident on page 1 of the challenge and I don't potentially have to go digging through the challenge to find my olde opinion later)...
Similar to lordpat's Spell Strike, it ties the effectiveness of the counter spell to a very green idea, number of creatures, and gives you a little treat even if you don't get to counter something properly.
| Flo00
| no render provided
| Canopy Elemental
Three generic and two green
Creature - Elemental
Reach, hexproof from artifacts and enchantments
A generic, two green, and Sacrifice Canopy Elemental: Counter target creature spell with flying.
4/4 | Another great example of how to break color, by restricting the effectiveness of the break by making it only work against things green is established as hating, flying creatures.
The card gives you a decent blocker, and if you want to counter something you have to be prepared to give up that blocker to get it done.
| twintania
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| Crush in the Egg
A green
Instant
Target creature spell deals damage equal to its power to target creature you control. If that spell has toughness less than or equal to the creature's power, counter it.
| I'd already judged this but I did do it super early, so I'mma judge yours too.
I like this one, where you're turning a fight card into a counter spell, and that's a really interesting take that plays nice into greens themes.
But, as I mentioned with lordpat's entry, I'd not be super enthused about the prospect of a green counter spell of any variety that can be put on an isochron sceptor.
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{Winner}These were all great entries for a new challenge. I'm going to give it to Daij_Djan , because I think their card best exemplifies the really interesting flavor you can only build by deciding to break from the pie mechanically. |
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Post by Idea on Jan 4, 2023 1:08:34 GMT
hydraheadhunter I want to point out that the counter on the card I made, if we're comparing it to Jin A) Does not work on artifacts B) Also counters your own spells C) Does not also come with a copy ability and a (relatively) large body attached So even if we argue that a break should be weaker and the counter ability is the strongest of Jin's ability, excluding the mana gain the card is a strict downgrade on the ability in what I would argue is a pretty significant extent, and for nearly if not over 2/3s the mana of the original (and already at high amounts of mana where the difference in costs increasingly less relevant, not to mention the extra colored mana symbol). And while the mana gain ability is not insignificant it requires opponents feeding into it (sure you can feed it yourself but you'd probably spend more mana casting the spell that gets countered than you get from the mana gain)- which they can probably play around
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Post by hydraheadhunter on Jan 4, 2023 1:40:18 GMT
hydraheadhunter I want to point out that the counter on the card I made, if we're comparing it to Jin A) Does not work on artifacts B) Also counters your own spells C) Does not also come with a copy ability and a (relatively) large body attached So even if we argue that a break should be weaker and the counter ability is the strongest of Jin's ability, excluding the mana gain the card is a strict downgrade on the ability in what I would argue is a pretty significant extent, and for nearly if not over 2/3s the mana of the original (and already at high amounts of mana where the difference in costs increasingly less relevant, not to mention the extra colored mana symbol). And while the mana gain ability is not insignificant it requires opponents feeding into it (sure you can feed it yourself but you'd probably spend more mana casting the spell that gets countered than you get from the mana gain)- which they can probably play around Yeah, it doesn't work on artifacts and it counters your own spells (downgrade), but it's on an enchantment and gets you some checky mana (upgrade), I'm of the opinion that it's sitting at roughly the same power level as the jin-gitaxias downside for you ability which as a stand alone ability in blue would be fairly costed at around abouts 4-6. I'm sorry; to me, it just feels too good for a green counter spell, like the break went too far.
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Post by Idea on Jan 4, 2023 9:26:40 GMT
Yeah, it doesn't work on artifacts and it counters your own spells (downgrade), but it's on an enchantment and gets you some checky mana (upgrade), I'm of the opinion that it's sitting at roughly the same power level as the jin-gitaxias downside for you ability which as a stand alone ability in blue would be fairly costed at around abouts 4-6. I'm sorry; to me, it just feels too good for a green counter spell, like the break went too far.
I feel you're quite overpricing Jin's ability (otherwise one would have to say a 5/5 body and the copy ability together would be worth around 1-3 mana, which I can't say would be fair even if we raised by 1 (to 2-4 mana), which is not to mention the additional price of having it all in one card), as well as underestimating the self-countering downside (since it's either a frequent countering of one of your own spells or a big deck building limitation of pretty much excluding instants and sorceries from your deck). Regardless, I understand we have a difference of opinion here. I just wanted to point out some aspects that I feel may have been missed, and why I feel this was a bit of an unfair assessment. |
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Post by twintania on Jan 4, 2023 11:25:28 GMT
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Post by Idea on Jan 4, 2023 13:51:36 GMT
I’m afraid the entries this time have already been judged. |
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Post by hydraheadhunter on Jan 4, 2023 13:58:15 GMT
I’m afraid the entries this time have already been judged. Just so Twin knows, I did append a judgement for their card to my list because it was an unusually fast judging period. As much as I love winning, I'm really bad at being responsible for judging challenges. Speaking of, I need to go check that I'm not responsible for any because I forgot to do that when I judged this. |
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Post by Daij_Djan on Jan 4, 2023 18:47:11 GMT
Big thanks for the win - glad you liked it 
For our second challenge, after blending  into , let's blend into  now!
As you all probably know, white was considered the worst color in Commander since it was lacking in two core areas of the format: ramp and card draw. Since WotC has now finally fixed (or is in the process of, if you will) white's card draw issues by simply letting it draw cards (what a weird concept  ), I want you all to focus on the other troublesome are and design a white ramp card.
Have fun, everyone!
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Post by Idea on Jan 4, 2023 20:29:01 GMT
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Post by twintania on Jan 4, 2023 23:52:41 GMT
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Post by hydraheadhunter on Jan 5, 2023 3:28:30 GMT
It's been said somewhere that green's ramp enchantments should be white's thing. Theyr not, so they count in my opinion as a break, and with that in mind... let's just colorshift some of those and call it a day.
After remembering that heartbeat of spring, mana flare, crypt ghast, and spreading seas are all also cards, I figured it might be a good idea to pop a white one into this peusdo-vertical cycle to. Fertile Farmland
A generic and a white
Enchantment — Aura
Enchant Land
Whenever enchanted land is tapped for mana, its controller adds an additional mana of any color produced.
| Village Commons
Two generic and a white
Enchantment — Aura
Enchant Land
Whenever enchanted land is tapped for mana, its controller adds an additional one mana of any color.
| Bussling Market
Three generic and a white
Enchantment — Aura
Enchant Land
Whenever enchanted land is tapped for mana, its controller adds an additional two mana in any combination of colors.
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City Garrison
Two generic and two white
Enchantment — Aura
Enchant land
As long as enchanted land is untapped, Soldiers you control have vigilence.
Whenever enchanted land is tapped for mana, its controller adds an additional white.
Four generic, a white, Sacrifice City Garrison: Create three 1/1 white Soldier creature tokens.
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Foriegn Tax Office
A generic and two white
Enchantment — Aura
Enchant land you don't control
Whenever enchanted land is tapped for mana, you add one mana of any color that land produced. This mana doesn't empty at the end of steps and phases.
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Dawn's Radiance
Two generic and a white
Enchantment
Whenever a player taps a land for mana, that player adds one mana of any type that land produced.
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Post by melono on Jan 5, 2023 17:50:37 GMT
A reference to an old white "ramp" card that I really wanted to get to work, but couldn't: Trade CaravanTrader's Caravan Creature - Human Nomad  Whenever a land enters the battlefield under an opponent's control, put a currency counter on ~. Remove two currency counters from ~: Untap target basic land. Only use this ability once each turn. 0/2 |
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Post by Flo00 on Jan 5, 2023 19:43:08 GMT
Apparently, white is allowed conditional Treasure tokens. So let's combine this with something white likes doing. Heresy Tax Enchantment  Artifacts, creatures and lands your opponents control enter the battlefield tapped. Whenever a permanent enters the battlefield tapped under an opponent’s control, they may untap it. If they do, you gain 1 life and create a Treasure token. |
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Post by ZephyrPhantom on Jan 11, 2023 19:40:04 GMT
Lots of good entries here, this is gonna be tough to compete with. Till the Fiefdoms Sorcery As an additional cost to cast ~, tap three untapped Citizens you control. Search your library for a basic Plains card, put that card onto the battlefield tapped, then shuffle. I wanted to use "Serf" but that's pretty much only a type that exists for Sengir Autocrat. Citizens makes it more applicable and hopefully still conveys the flavor of working peasants to the bone. |
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Post by gluestick248 on Jan 12, 2023 16:41:54 GMT
This card does a lot of things, but one of those is ramp. Gavony Scout Creature — Human Scout When Gavony Scout enters the battlefield, create a 1/1 white Human creature token for each opponent who controls more lands than you. Whenever one or more Humans you control deal combat damage to your opponents, exile the top card of your library, then you may put a permanent card with mana value 1 or less exiled with Gavony Scout onto the battlefield tapped. 1/1 |
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Post by vizionarius on Jan 13, 2023 19:15:06 GMT
Serra's Sanctuary Legendary Enchantment  Enchantment spells you cast cost less to cast. Whenever you cast an enchantment spell, you gain 1 life and scry 1.
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Post by Daij_Djan on Jan 23, 2023 23:37:58 GMT
This contest really has had an interesting start - first challenge went by probably a bit too quickly while the second one was way too long..
Sorry about that everyone - really didn't feel well last week, so the contest ran much longer than planned. Today is reserved for CotW/DC stuff, and to be honest I'll probably be busy tomorrow, but I should be able to finally judge this on Wednesday - so please have just a bit more patience. I really want to do a full judging and not just declare a winner since I totally agree with the entries being really strong (including one using what I personally think WotC should use to do ramp in white in general ) this time |
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Post by Daij_Djan on Jan 27, 2023 21:09:04 GMT
Well, obviously I wasn't gonna stick to the deadline - but here we go! { Idea} Skipping your step or parts of it is rarely used as part of a cost, I like the idea. Just two minor complaints: Not sure I like it works without controlling a single creature - also I think the card should be rare since skipping concept is just so unusual. { twintania} Very clever downside, this is cool. Especially since when seen as a very, very slow blinking, the cost could be turned into a positive in the end. { hydraheadhunter} Fun fact: Yes, this is exactly the concept I agree with as well since I first heard of it a few years ago. The flavor works, it fits into white's enchantment / aura theme, and with ramp spells and mana dorks green really doesn't need the third option much (or it could be that green adds mana of any color, whereas white gets the effect to add more of the color added already). So yeah, love it - which is why you might have it hard to win since I try to not play favorites { melono} This is definitely an old card I never knew about - interesting way to tackle white's untapping ability. The powerlevel is hard to evaluate, since it probably heavily depends on your given format and meta. Early on in a Commander game with players using fetches, this could be quite the powerhouse imho - whereas in 1v1 without fetches it's most likely way to slow to ever be worth it.. No critism, I like it when a card's powerlevel has such a great range { Flo00} Very clever combination indeed, really like the idea! Since it also effects lands (not even restricted to nonbasics), it might be a bit cheap at one mana though. { ZephyrPhantom} Same flavor concept as twintania's design but with a different execution. Requiring three creatures of a rather unusual type (even though I've been advocating for more Citizens for years ) is probably too much of a cost though, so it might need some rebalancing. { gluestick248} This one does quite a few things indeed, very interesting. Like how the ETB fits into white's recent catch-up concept, making it easier to hit the triggered ability but not being required to make that one work. Clever choice of fitting the ramp into white's low CMC theme (still haven't gotten used to mana value  ), even if I'm a bit scared what some Human tribal decks might do with this ability.. { vizionarius} Cost reduction definitely is a safe and proven ramp concept - which ironically might make the card a bit to "normal" for this contest? Like that you go with reducing colored mana though, this isn't really done often - even if, to be fair, that's because this can be a bit dangerous {And the winner is..} Honestly, I'm really impressed by the quality and range of all of your designs - just wow! Come on now WotC, ramp in white definitely can be done As I guess I really have to name a winner, after some pondering I decided to go with twintania in the end |
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Post by Idea on Jan 27, 2023 21:42:30 GMT
Well, obviously I wasn't gonna stick to the deadline - but here we go! { Idea} Skipping your step or parts of it is rarely used as part of a cost, I like the idea. Just two minor complaints: Not sure I like it works without controlling a single creature - also I think the card should be rare since skipping concept is just so unusual. I do think you still have a battle phase even if you don't control creatures, don't you? Sure nothing happens in it, but you still have it. |
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Post by Daij_Djan on Jan 27, 2023 21:48:16 GMT
Sorry, badly phrased
You definitely have a combat phase, yes. And that's exactly my point: I'm not sure whether I like that it does work despite you not having a creature since skipping combat doesn't matter much (so it's not a real cost) for you in that case..
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Post by Idea on Jan 27, 2023 22:10:24 GMT
Sorry, badly phrased You definitely have a combat phase, yes. And that's exactly my point: I'm not sure whether I like that it does work despite you not having a creature since skipping combat doesn't matter much (so it's not a real cost) for you in that case..
Oh I see. Well, if I may make my case, as this is something I thought of as I made the card, this is how I view it: Until you have five creatures, the card is basically akin to using a Rampant Growth to search for a plains, except for the added condition you don't attack. One could see that while you don't have creatures there is an alternative condition of "control no creatures", something which would be particularly punishing in a color like white, that has the second biggest reliance on creatures after green. This way I feel, the card creates a certain balance in its weakness, fitting for white: If you have creatures, then you get a conditional advantage. If you don't have them, you get some free mana to catch up. If you have put in the effort to manage to get many creatures on the battlefield, you get a reward. Either way, with or without creatures, your opponent gets relative safety in return for you getting ramp. |
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Post by twintania on Jan 29, 2023 7:13:01 GMT
Thx for the win. This is very interesting game and I have hoped to set the challenge.
The next one is long forgotten Blue Damage. It can be whether an instant or sorcery with damage effect or a permanent with a damage ability.
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Post by hydraheadhunter on Jan 29, 2023 8:35:30 GMT
Silver Border
Frostbite (Not to be Confused with Frost Bite)
Three generic Xs and two blue.
Sorcery
Spend only snow mana to cast Frostbite.
Put X stun counters on each nonsnow creature.
Frostbite (Not to be Confused with Frost Bite) deals damage to each tapped creature equal to the number of stun counters on them, then tap each creature with stun counters on them.
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Frost bite was taken, and Frostbite is too close on the nose, so here's the silver border card Frostbite (Not to be Confused with Frost Bite); I think I'm funny. |
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Post by Idea on Jan 29, 2023 11:34:36 GMT
While it's primarily in white at the moment, damage redirection just feels right at home for blue in my view and would be a really good fit - It interferes with the opponent's plans and uses their strengths as your own, and it may require the right set up to take advantage of, even one that would otherwise potentially seem counter-intuitive. As a bit of a comparative downside to account for the color pie break, I decided to approach the effect as being more conditional. Other potentially interesting ideas for blue would be traps or slow damage that deals building up but rewards you for patience, or perhaps something with the number of cards in your hand or the top of your deck, which unfortunately I couldn't fit into the card without jeopardizing quality.Edit: Couldn't resist making a card with those elements after all. In case only one entry is allowed, take the first as my entry.   |
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), I want you all to focus on the other troublesome are and design a white ramp card.
), even if I'm a bit scared what some Human tribal decks might do with this ability..