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Post by hydraheadhunter on Aug 24, 2024 7:12:00 GMT
I've played a decent amount of casual pauper commander (Zameck Combo), so I know what drawing cards in pauper be like, and yeah Rhysic Study do be drawing too many for too cheap. Our options to fix this are to make it trigger less, generate less value each time it triggers, or make it cost more to set up the full engine. With that in mind, here's my proposal.
Rhystic Study Two generic and a blue
Enchantment
Whenever an opponent casts the first spell each turn, scry 1 unless that player pays one generic. |
You only trigger it at most once per turn (likely 3 times per turn cycle, discounting your turn since you'll likely cast the first spell on that turn), and you only get a scry instead of a draw if it triggers if the tax isn't paid. 'Scry 1 three times' is still incredibly powerful in pauper, but not nearly as all consuming as draw 3-6 cards a turn cycle.
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Post by gluestick248 on Sept 11, 2024 18:07:45 GMT
Rhystic Student Creature — Human Wizard When ~ enters, draw a card. Whenever an opponent casts a spell, they may pay . If that player doesn’t, you may return ~ to its owner’s hand. 1/3 This keeps the cost, and your opponent can still pay to stop you from drawing cards, but you need to replay it every time. It’s also more vulnerable as a creature.
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Post by melono on Sept 17, 2024 18:50:34 GMT
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Post by gluestick248 on Sept 18, 2024 11:37:00 GMT
Thanks melono! For the next challenge, let’s see some versions of whatever we’re supposed to call this Goblin that would be unbanned in Legacy. That means no stickers, so you’ll need other ways to make random amounts of mana.
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Post by sciophobia on Sept 18, 2024 18:58:40 GMT
Doing this just as text as my understanding is we are modifying the existing card. In my mind that means new text box, but the rest is as printed.
New text box:
While this creature is in play you don't lose unspent mana in your mana pool as phases change. When this creature enters and when it attacks, reveal the top card of your library. Add {R} for each unique vowel on the revealed card. (The vowels are A, E, I, O, U, and Y.)
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Post by ZephyrPhantom on Sept 18, 2024 19:49:42 GMT
MaRo has written about how the library is a much more natural source of randomness in Magic to players, so this seems like a pretty logical solution: Immolation Expert Creature - Goblin Artificer When ~ enters the battlefield, exile the top card of your library, then add equal to the mana value of the card exiled this way plus two. 2/2 The typical Name Sticker Goblin deck appears to run a lot of creatures that would give somethings similar to the 4/5/6 spread with this design. 5 will be the most likely result due to the large number of MV3 creatures including Simian Spirit Guide and Goblin Matron, with a decent chance for 4 due to the presence of cheaper goblins like Broadside Bombardiers. Hitting Muxus, Goblin Grandee will generate 8 instead of 6 , but I feel this is okay for two reasons: 1) the probability is much lower to say, get one of four Muxus out of a 50 card deck (8% vs 25% for Name Sticker Goblin's diceroll) and 2) if you got 6 mana off a card like this and got a free Muxus on the field you're about to run away with the game anyway with all the free goblins you're going to get. 2 more mana isn't going to really change that outcome much.
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Post by gluestick248 on Sept 27, 2024 1:06:52 GMT
And time’s up! sciophobia: This is a clever way to care about vowels without using the sticker sheet, keeping it firmly in Un territory. Adding mana every attack and keeping that mana through combat is very strong. ZephyrPhantom: You really did your homework on this one. One thing you didn’t mention is that hitting a Muxus means you’re up 8 mana, but that Muxus is exiled forever. There are two very different designs here, but I’ll give the win to ZephyrPhantom for staying closer to the original. Sciophobia’s Goblin is powerful, but it provides consistent mana rather than giving you one explosive turn. Congratulations ZephyrPhantom!
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Post by ZephyrPhantom on Sept 27, 2024 6:43:14 GMT
Thanks, and we're just in time for a rather spicy new wave of bans too. Your next challenge is to get Nadu, Winged Wisdom unbanned from Modern and Commander (the general reason is the same either way - he generates too much value), but you must keep the aspect that his ability triggers twice a turn. I'd like to see some creative fixes here. Good luck!
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Post by hydraheadhunter on Sept 27, 2024 13:33:26 GMT
Don't mind me, just taking the easy fixes. Nadu, Clipped-winged Wisdom A green, a blue, and a generic
Legendary Creature — Bird Wizard
Flying
Whenever another creature you control becomes the target of a spell or ability, reveal the top card of your library. If it’s a land card, put it onto the battlefield tapped. Otherwise, put it into your hand. This ability triggers only twice each turn.
3/4
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It says it only triggers twice per turn: ergo, it only triggers twice per turn. Not per creature per turn. Per turn. Total. Period. Nothing cute. Also, clipped the ramp's power by forcing it to come in tapped. If you want faster land, amulet of vigor is a card you can put in the 99.
I'd estimate it pops him down from SSS teir to like A-tier, Still powerful but only slightly stronger than a solo Thrasios, Triton Hero. You get a lot of value per turn cycle, up to eight cards, but it takes significantly more set up to earn max output.
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Bouncearama
3/3 Beast
Posts: 174
Formerly Known As: pistonsmcgraw
Favorite Card: Davriel, Soul Broker
Favorite Set: Unstable
Color Alignment: Blue, Black, Red
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Post by Bouncearama on Oct 19, 2024 21:58:48 GMT
Nadu, Winged Wisdom Legendary Creature - Bird Wizard Flying Play with the top card of your library revealed. Whenever a creature you control becomes the target of a spell or ability an opponent controls, reveal the top card of your library. If it’s a creature card, put it onto the battlefield. Otherwise, put it into your hand. This ability triggers only twice each turn. 3/4
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Post by ZephyrPhantom on Nov 1, 2024 14:36:39 GMT
Both of these fixes are pretty straightforward, but hydraheadhunter wins by staying closer to the original intention of a value engine that a deck can be built around. I see what Bouncearama's take is getting at but I think the use cases for this version are very limited to the point it might not even be worth running as a Commander (outside of one very specific type of political deck).
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Bouncearama
3/3 Beast
Posts: 174
Formerly Known As: pistonsmcgraw
Favorite Card: Davriel, Soul Broker
Favorite Set: Unstable
Color Alignment: Blue, Black, Red
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Post by Bouncearama on Nov 1, 2024 19:50:09 GMT
Both of these fixes are pretty straightforward, but hydraheadhunter wins by staying closer to the original intention of a value engine that a deck can be built around. I see what Bouncearama's take is getting at but I think the use cases for this version are very limited to the point it might not even be worth running as a Commander (outside of one very specific type of political deck). I did a semi-reversion to the old version: magic.wizards.com/en/news/feature/on-banning-nadu-winged-wisdom-in-modern
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Post by ZephyrPhantom on Nov 1, 2024 20:31:19 GMT
Both of these fixes are pretty straightforward, but hydraheadhunter wins by staying closer to the original intention of a value engine that a deck can be built around. I see what Bouncearama's take is getting at but I think the use cases for this version are very limited to the point it might not even be worth running as a Commander (outside of one very specific type of political deck). I did a semi-reversion to the old version: magic.wizards.com/en/news/feature/on-banning-nadu-winged-wisdom-in-modernValid point but Michael Majors states that "After removing the [flash] ability, it wasn't clear that the card would have an audience or a home, something that is important for every card we make. Ultimately, my intention was to create a build-around aimed at Commander play, which resulted in the final text." I don't think lifting the ban is very impactful if the card is going to have a hard time seeing play in its new iteration. Your version has good intent behind it but your choice of 2nd ability ("Play with the top card of your library revealed.") to replace the flash-granting one doesn't actually add much to the card itself. If anything, if I understand it right, it actually gives the opponent free information on when they should hold back removal so you can't get free cards off the revised Nadu, which makes it very hard for the player to get any cards out of it, let alone use it as a key part of a deck. I think I would've looked at this version a lot more optimistically if it looked something like this: This way, it avoids the original design's concerns of being a constant flash value machine, but it can act as a one time punish against removal that you play at the end of a large stack. That way, you either surprise your opponents with it in Modern or hold it around ominously in the Command zone to play politics with it (at the cost of not being able to do much with it once it's actually out.)
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Post by hydraheadhunter on Nov 2, 2024 15:28:59 GMT
Thank you for win.
Staying on the train of recent commander bans.
That monkey deserved to die; but it wasn't doomed from the start.
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Bouncearama
3/3 Beast
Posts: 174
Formerly Known As: pistonsmcgraw
Favorite Card: Davriel, Soul Broker
Favorite Set: Unstable
Color Alignment: Blue, Black, Red
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Post by Bouncearama on Nov 2, 2024 18:00:20 GMT
Dockside Extortionist Creature — Goblin Pirate When ~ enters, create X Treasure tokens, where X is the number of opponents you have that control an artifact or enchantment. (Treasure tokens are artifacts with “{T}, Sacrifice this artifact: Add one mana of any color.”) 2/2
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Post by Idea on Nov 4, 2024 0:16:28 GMT
So it seems the main issue with the extortionist was the ability to recur it and repeat the effect. Additionally, he was a self-paying, immediate huge advantage in many games. To try to keep the point of the card while avoiding it's biggest pitfalls, I made two changes: 1 - The card is no longer a creature, thus avoiding most forms of repeatedly triggering the effect. I also don't think much was lost, I doubt the body was really the reason the card was played. 2 - I made the treasures come in tapped so it's not a huge immediate advantage but a slightly delayed one.
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Bouncearama
3/3 Beast
Posts: 174
Formerly Known As: pistonsmcgraw
Favorite Card: Davriel, Soul Broker
Favorite Set: Unstable
Color Alignment: Blue, Black, Red
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Post by Bouncearama on Nov 4, 2024 22:31:18 GMT
So it seems the main issue with the extortionist was the ability to recur it and repeat the effect. Additionally, he was a self-paying, immediate huge advantage in many games. To try to keep the point of the card while avoiding it's biggest pitfalls, I made two changes: 1 - The card is no longer a creature, thus avoiding most forms of repeatedly triggering the effect. I also don't think much was lost, I doubt the body was really the reason the card was played. 2 - I made the treasures come in tapped so it's not a huge immediate advantage but a slightly delayed one. I would change the name to Dockside Extortion, the ist suffix makes me think of a creature.
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Post by Idea on Nov 4, 2024 22:36:52 GMT
So it seems the main issue with the extortionist was the ability to recur it and repeat the effect. Additionally, he was a self-paying, immediate huge advantage in many games. To try to keep the point of the card while avoiding it's biggest pitfalls, I made two changes: 1 - The card is no longer a creature, thus avoiding most forms of repeatedly triggering the effect. I also don't think much was lost, I doubt the body was really the reason the card was played. 2 - I made the treasures come in tapped so it's not a huge immediate advantage but a slightly delayed one. I would change the name to Dockside Extortion, the ist suffix makes me think of a creature. I considered whether I would need to make that change, however I decided against it. While it's against the typical instant/sorcery convention the flavor works just as well and I wanted to keep the changes to the card the minimum necessary. Still if it's creating that kind of feeling maybe it's best I change it after all. I'll get on that.
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Post by gluestick248 on Nov 5, 2024 3:24:10 GMT
Dockside Extortionist Creature — Goblin Pirate When ~ enters, create X Treasure tokens, where X is the number of enchantments your opponents control. 2/1
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Post by hydraheadhunter on Nov 5, 2024 8:40:45 GMT
I'm gonna judge this quick because I prefer fast games and three entries is enough me thinks. I also need to be at a polling place to facilitate the Yankeeland election (we're deciding between a big pizza party and infinite lysteria outbreaks) so I'mma be brief. {Judging} Bouncearama | Dockside Extortionist A red and two generic
Creature — Goblin Pirate
When ~ enters, create X Treasure tokens, where X is the number of opponents you have that control an artifact or enchantment.
2/2
| This is a significant nerf, to the point it'd be difficult to justify playing ever.
In a standard pod of commander, you'd get at most three treasure out of it, which means in the best of circumstances, it just barely pays for itself.
I think it coulda stayed at 2 for how hard the change to its ceiling kneecaps its power level. Heck, it probably could go down to 1 with some adjustments to the body the ETB is attached to
| Idea | Dockside Extortion A red and a generic
Sorcery
Create X tapped Treasure tokens, where X is the number of artifacts and enchantments your opponents control.
| Yeah, this is definitely less abusable, but Isochron Scepter continues to exist, the bastard, meaning that the cases where you can abuse the ETB don't go away, they just become more niche.
The biggest hit to the power level is actually making the tokens come in tapped, meaning you've got a more hoops to jump through to see the benefit of playing the card.
| gluestick248 | Dockside Extortionist A red and a generic
Creature — Goblin Pirate
When ~ enters, create X Treasure tokens, where X is the number of enchantments your opponents control.
2/1 | Yeah, that's much more reasonable effect line. The original was so potent hitting artifacts and enchantments, that it was impossible to build in mind of the card: nearly all decks need artifacts and enchantments to function: the dockside player gets to generate a massive advantage by capturing so incidental value from other players at the table just playing the game.
Cutting that incidential advantage by at least half by targeting the more niche card type seems a good way to go, even if it's less flavorful. It can still pop off, especially if you slide it in against an enchantress player; but, it won't do so with nearly as consistantly or vigor.
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Post by gluestick248 on Nov 5, 2024 17:45:08 GMT
Thanks hydraheadhunter! For the next challenge, unban Blazing Shoal in Modern. This was banned for enabling turn 2 wins in infect decks, so let’s see something a bit more reasonable.
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Post by Idea on Nov 5, 2024 18:27:32 GMT
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Post by ZephyrPhantom on Nov 5, 2024 21:05:26 GMT
March of Impassioned Souls Instant - Arcane As an additional cost to cast this spell, you may exile any number of red cards from your hand. This spell costs less to cast for each card exiled this way. Target creature gets +X/+0 until end of turn. Giving it a Neon Dynasty style rework that keeps the original idea intact without making it too easy for Infect to exploit.
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Post by vizionarius on Nov 6, 2024 17:10:01 GMT
Blazing Shoal Instant Target creature gets +X/+0 until end of turn. Splice onto Arcane--Exile a red card from your hand with mana value X. (As you cast an Arcane spell, you may reveal this card from your hand and pay its splice cost. If you do, add this card’s effects to that spell.)
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Post by gluestick248 on Nov 12, 2024 16:21:10 GMT
And this challenge is closed. Your judgment awaits: Idea: This reminds me of From Under the Floorboards and Welcome to the Fold, but in reverse. +3 power is still good for no mana, but the turn 2 win is much harder (you’d need 3 of these and 3 other red cards). I also like how you get 3 power if you cast it for free another way, like with cascade. ZephyrPhantom: I appreciate the reference to that NEO cycle (which itself may have been a reference to the Shoals). However, to get any significant power buff you need to pay at least 2 mana and exile multiple cards, which doesn’t seem worth the cost. Adding some keywords (like Lunar Frenzy) or another upside would make this more appealing, although farther from the original card. vizionarius: Splice onto Arcane is a very interesting way to balance this effect, since you need to be playing an Arcane spell, but the Shoal only costs you the one card since the original stays in your hand. Assuming this was supposed to be Arcane, you could even cast this for X=0 and splice another copy onto it. I’ll give the win to idea for their smaller version. Turn Inside Out saw some Standard play, so 3 power for cheap seems powerful but reasonable. Congratulations!
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Post by Idea on Nov 13, 2024 1:38:42 GMT
Thank you for the win gluestick248 ! Edit: nevermind the card I was going for was already in this challenge, picking a new thing. Edit 2: Alright, this might be fun. Let's unban Chaos Orb! Largely banned because of the weird way it works, requiring manual dexterity and people not wanting to deal with having to determine if everything was done correctly or whether the card touched others.
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Post by hydraheadhunter on Nov 13, 2024 16:25:18 GMT
Chaos Orb Two generic
Artifact
a generic, tap, exile chaos orb: For each permanent roll a D6. On rolling a 1, destroy that permanent.
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Simple effect that randomly destroys an expected 1/6th of the board. Keeps the idea without any dexterity. Main issue being that for most advanced boardstates, resolving its' effect would be a pain in the fucking ass.
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Post by vizionarius on Nov 16, 2024 16:37:13 GMT
Chaos Orb Artifact As this artifact enters, roll a four-sided die and note the result. , , Exile this artifact: Destroy X target permanents. X must be less than or equal to the noted result.
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