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Post by ZephyrPhantom on Mar 20, 2023 8:44:20 GMT
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Post by twintania on Mar 25, 2023 18:12:24 GMT
 I don't know much about EDH and so also don't know why it is so strong. I can guess it is easier that you keep a 5 colored commander in play than other formats. But an instant kill spell can stop the victory so I feel it is not so easy to prepare an situation you win with the victory. So I simply give it a higher cost if you beat the "coalition" on the other hand it can be cheap if you tap four or five creatures to tap for the coalition. And I guessed that one spell kills all other players would be the problem especially in casual play so changed the effect from your win to opponents' lose. I feel it captured the feeling of Coalition Victory more accurately than the original. |
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Post by hydraheadhunter on Mar 28, 2023 7:35:09 GMT
I don't have the energy for a full write up right now, and don't think I'll have that energy for a while. Of these options, I like ZephyrPhantom 's the best , so congratulations to ZephyrPhantom on the win. |
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Post by ZephyrPhantom on Mar 28, 2023 11:43:38 GMT
Thanks, let's give it a shot then. Let's do an oldie but goodie - get Splinter Twin unbanned in Modern without completely neutering it! (For those not in the know - read Deceiver Exarch and think about how that works. =P) |
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Post by Idea on Mar 28, 2023 13:05:50 GMT
 The essential change here that makes the combo a lot harder to pull off is adding the stun counter. The new ability in effect removes the stun counter at the end of the turn anyway, making it close to the original effect, except that you need more than one untap effect to untap each time the ability is triggered. It's possible there's some card that can prevent stun counters from being put on a creature but when you add more cards to a combo that makes that combo harder to pull off, which could be enough to push into the unbanned zone. I also considered making it a "once per turn" effect but I felt I wanted to leave some chance for repeated use since that was part of the point of how the card was made originally and I didn't want to completely strip away that feature. Since it really is usually locked into a once per turn thing though I thought it would be reasonable to lower the cost a tiny bit. |
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Post by vizionarius on Mar 28, 2023 18:02:04 GMT
Splinter Twin   Enchantment — Aura  Enchant creature Enchanted creature has “ ,  : Create a token that’s a copy of this creature, except it has haste. Exile that token at the beginning of the next end step.” “I know just the person for that job.”Adding a single to the ability cost to remove the ease of the infinite. Like Idea , I remove one from the card's cost to offset the extra cost of the ability. |
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moweda
3/3 Beast
Posts: 164
Favorite Card: Psychic Vortex
Color Alignment: Blue, Black, Red
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Post by moweda on Mar 29, 2023 3:33:12 GMT
Miller Twin   Enchantment - Aura Enchant creature Enchanted creature has “ , Mill 1: Create a token that’s a copy of this creature, except it has haste. Exile that token at the beginning of the next end step.” "We will grind out a solution together."Adding a mill is a really marginal cost increase, but it does at least force an endpoint to any combo. With the introduction of I feel like it's worth an overall cost reduction. |
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Post by ZephyrPhantom on Apr 18, 2023 16:57:55 GMT
Can't do a full judging unfortunately but want to keep this moving. Idea wins for having the most mechanically interesting stopgap, though the other two solutions are very practical as well. moweda - I do want to point out this doesn't solve the original problem with splinter twin combo though - infinite tokens now becomes 40-50 instead which is still more than enough to kill most opponents that turn. Makes a difference vs. Heliod infinite life decks I guess but I don't think that's a wide enough range of decks to fairly fight it. |
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Post by Idea on Apr 18, 2023 23:18:52 GMT
Shame for no judging, but thanks for the win ZephyrPhantom ! Next up is Thassa's Oracle as far as I know only banned in historic, mainly due to the combo with Tainted Pact, though apparently other concerns with potential future interactions also came into play thus choosing to ban the oracle. I will request that you keep an alternate wincon. It doesn't have to be exactly the current alternate wincon, but it should at least somewhat related to it. |
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Post by Idea on May 2, 2023 10:17:37 GMT
Bump hoping for entries!
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Post by melono on May 2, 2023 20:29:22 GMT
Causitus Oracle Enchantment Creature - Nymph If you would draw a card while your library has no cards in it, you win the game instead. , : Mill three cards. 2/2 Still strong enough win-con, but really now, it doesn't have those ridiculous activation stacking things.
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moweda
3/3 Beast
Posts: 164
Favorite Card: Psychic Vortex
Color Alignment: Blue, Black, Red
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Post by moweda on May 5, 2023 15:21:57 GMT
Thassa's Enigma Creature - Weird Wizard When ~ enters the battlefield, look at the top X cards of your library, where X is your devotion to blue. Put up to one of them on top of your library and the rest on the bottom of your library in a random order. If X is less than 1, you win the game. 1/3 It will really take some doing to have 0 devotion to blue when this ETB. |
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Post by Idea on May 10, 2023 0:57:20 GMT
review coming tomorrow, anyone who still wants to make an entry is welcome!
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Post by Idea on May 11, 2023 1:11:40 GMT
melono{Spoiler}A nice workaround, not sure if this really deals with the combo, since Tainted pact would still remove cards from the top of your library. I may be misunderstanding how the combo actually worked though. Overall, the card seems to be pretty well designed, and not defining the player that gets milled is a nice touch since it lets you use the card for mill decks as well. The downside is the card lost the majority of its flavor in the process, both the devotion and pseudo-scrying aspect. moweda{Spoiler}My Johny senses are tingling, and a card like this definitely feels like one of those One with Nothing types just begging for people to find an exploit. My guess is that you'd need to find a way to put on the battlefield without a mana cost, then sac, exile or bounce it in response to the effect. Something like Rise from the Grave + Bone Splinters. It's a good resolution for the combo problem I feel, which splits the flavor aspect to still have a benefit, but gives you a win if you can pull the harder side. Winner {Spoiler}The winner is melono . Although overall I preferred moweda 's solution on paper, and I did find it preserved the original flavor better while giving somethign very creative to work around, a very major flaw is how easy it remains to trigger a win condition with it now.
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Post by melono on May 11, 2023 15:05:25 GMT
Thanks for the win. I could have used devotion more in the card, absolutely. By the by, the main thing making this card weaker, is that if you destroy the creature, its effect also is gone, instead of the activated ability that is the Thoracles etb. It makes the user much more vulnerable to getting screwed over when milling themselves out with something like Tainted Pact, which you can react to by destroying the creature. Thoracle's effect still works, even if destroyed, so you can only counter the milling effect, which means the player doesn't actually mill out. Anyhoo, a card that could use a rework for commander: Trade secrets!  Problem is, that two players get to draw their decks out, while two other players get to cry in the corner. Make that not so. PS: I thought this one was already done, but I quickly went through the thread and it wasn't there, so I'm using it! |
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Post by Idea on May 11, 2023 21:25:20 GMT
 This way you might still get to draw a ton of card, but it's not ad infinitum and everyone other than yourself gets or at least can get the same advantage. Since comparatively you get the bigger advantage than any other player, I thought it would probably be fair to reduce the number of cards drawn down by one. The card is considerably weaker now, but given how unusual the effect and dynamics of the card are, I'm having a hard time pinpointing if this is a change worth reducing the mana cost over, so for now I'm keeping it as is. |
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Post by Flo00 on May 14, 2023 6:47:42 GMT
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Post by SilentKobold on May 14, 2023 21:44:15 GMT
Wizards already has a similar template so I wouldn't be surprised to see a fixed version in this template at some point. Trade Secrets Sorcery Tempting offer — Draw two cards. Each opponent may draw two cards. For each opponent who does, draw two cards. {Render}  |
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Post by fluffydeathbringer on May 15, 2023 17:55:21 GMT
Sorcery Each opponent may draw two cards. If a player does, you draw up to four cards. Repeat this process until no opponent draws cards this way.
fixed the issue: now everyone gets to draw out their decks |
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Post by melono on May 26, 2023 19:49:53 GMT
Judgement {Spoiler}Trading my time for some judgement: Idea - I like this effect of everyone getting a chance, though that means the caster gets a shitton. Well-executed version of it. Limits it well too. Flo00 - I get what you’re going for, and it’s a good idea, but the wording needs some change. Something like, for each opponent draw twice that opponent’s number of cards drawn this way. SilentKobold - Tempting offer is a really good fit for fixing this, and the way you’ve worded it is great as well. Just like you said, this card could totally happen. fluffydeathbringer - Hahaha, yes, fixed it, nailed it. But yeah, the same problem is going to happen, but now everyone has their deck in their hand. {Spoiler} Winner is: SilentKobold with their tempting ban-fix. Idea is second with a similar effect. |
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Post by SilentKobold on May 29, 2023 12:44:13 GMT
Thanks for the win. Unfortunately, I'm going to be pretty busy for the next few weeks so I'll pass this on to Idea. |
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Post by Idea on May 29, 2023 17:48:06 GMT
Understood. Good luck with whatever's keeping you busy SilentKobold ! For the next challenge, lets try to fix Golos, Tirless Pilgrim for commander. He was banned because he was simply too good at too many roles, leaving other commanders particularly for five colors unable to compete. I'll be valuing adherence to the original card as well as being able to fix this balance issue both, so while just ditching a side of Golos entirely is a valid strategy it may not be the winning one. |
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Post by Flo00 on Jun 1, 2023 14:17:57 GMT
Golos, Tireless Pilgrim  Legendary Artifact Creature - Scout When Golos, Tireless Pilgrim enters the battlefield, exile the top three cards of your library with a journey counter on them. You may play land cards you exiled with journey counters on them.    : This turn, you may play cards you exiled with journey counters on them without paying their mana costs. 3/5 |
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Post by Idea on Jun 15, 2023 23:02:13 GMT
bump, hoping for more entries!
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Post by ZephyrPhantom on Jun 16, 2023 10:15:22 GMT
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Post by vizionarius on Jun 16, 2023 18:16:59 GMT
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Post by Idea on Jun 23, 2023 8:25:32 GMT
Flo00{Spoiler}An interesting correction, changing a repeatable and bombastic effect with a single-time much weaker one. Don't get me wrong, I think something like this could still be very well played in commander and maybe even abused, but I think a large part of the appeal of this card as a commander is the repeated value, so I'm quite torn on whether this is maybe a little too big of a nerf, or if this restrictions to need to rely on other cards to repeat the effect is exactly what is needed to make this card work in a more balanced way. It is also stronger in being able to play the cards outside of the original turn, though considering the one time vs repeated thing, that's almost more of a nuance. ZephyrPhantom{Spoiler}A minimal change definitely deserving of those bonus points, and while maybe the -1/-1 counters aren't as difficult to clear out as one might hope for a balance patch to this card, the fact that it forces you to mix in counter removal into the deck could help to make it less consistent at least, while also leaving some room for other recursion mechanics like bounce to get this effect back on track as well. vizionarius{Spoiler}I feel this one is definitely going too far in the nerf, assuming there is some degree of balance to the original card at least in a void. The casting flexibility, stats, ability to remain even while or after using the ability, the fact it could play several of the cards and even the number exiled or in this case revealed. I think it compromises the card's original purpose a little too much.
One positive thing I will say though, it gives this card some sweet new +1/+1 counter themed interactions and there's plenty of those out there so this design could open up some new possibilities for this card as a commander. While I don't think that fully makes up for the loss, it's very nice indeed. Winner {Spoiler}Despite my criticisms, I think these were some great responses to the prompt. Ultimately, however, I feel ZephyrPhantom 's entry was the smoothest and and more consistently balanced of the nerfs, creating restrictions and new interactions while also keeping the spirit and form of the original card in large part. So they are the winner.
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Post by ZephyrPhantom on Jun 25, 2023 2:33:51 GMT
Thanks for the win. I'm surprised it hasn't been done yet given that it's mentioned in the OP - your next challenge is to rework Shahrazad to be an eternal format usable card (i.e. no silver border or acorn entries) that still keeps the original card's flavor. Bonus points if the card still messes with the gamestate and/or is still mono-white. |
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Post by SilentKobold on Jun 25, 2023 10:49:38 GMT
Not quite happy with the templating yet. While being a complete rework this hopefully keeps the theme of Shahrazard fighting for her life without being as stalling (except perhaps in commander where both the life-gain and the stalling matter significantly less.) Shahrazad Sorcery ::Rare:: Each player mills a card. Then each player that milled a card with the highest mana value or tied for the highest mana value, gains that much life. Then any player that milled a card with the lowest mana value or tied for the lowest mana value may pay , if they do, repeat this process. {Render}  |
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Post by Idea on Jun 25, 2023 19:48:52 GMT
 I tried to make a version that would work with black border wording-wise and keep as much of the idea of the original as possible. My rework to put if off the banned list is twofold: 1. Simplify what actually happens...sort of. It's not an entirely separate game with a separate life total etc... Instead there's a planeswalker with a target on her back that removes just about everything that could be interacted with. 2. Speed up the process of dealing with the pseudo-subgame. Rather than a full life total there's only Shahrazad's five loyalty and lands are still in play so there isn't that slow part of building them back up. The game for a given player also pretty much resumes in terms of having their life total exposed the moment Shahrazad is out of their battlefield too, so the subgame doesn't have to finish before continuing with the main stuff, except in as far as players getting their stuff back is concerned. Keeping the lands might also address the concern about it being unfun for slower decks to see their gameplan turned to shreds by a hard reset. As a sidenote, the original card's horizontal art wasn't the best for the vertical orientation of the planeswalker frame, so I switched the picture to one of fate's interpretation of Scheherazade (another name for the queen Shahrazad according to google). |
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