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Post by kefke on Mar 27, 2019 14:59:48 GMT
I've been having a little trouble with a "universal evasion" mechanic I've been working on. The original version had problems with being too easy to trigger, too abusable, and requiring way too much reminder text to function as intended and not be even more broken than it already was. So I'm sure that I've missed something important this time around too.
Elusive (Any time you could play an instant, you may pay this creature’s casting cost. If you do, it phases out.)
Edit: The intent here is that any time the creature feels threatened, it can just go poof and come back when it's safe. Originally, I had it do this through exile, but I realized that could be used to cheese ETB effects. Since cards don't ETB when they phase in, this avoids that pitfall. My primary concerns are that tying it to casting cost may have "Gen 1 Echo" issues of being too restrictive design wise, and that since it stays gone until its controller's next untap, this may either be too much of a hindrance for the controller, or simply make it too hard to kill since it always comes back with the means to leave again.
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Post by Jéské Couriano on Mar 27, 2019 18:47:14 GMT
Kefke ) This would require at least some of Phasing's reminder text ("phases out" invokes Phasing), and as such would be more verbose than you expect.
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Post by kefke on Mar 27, 2019 18:54:05 GMT
Okay, but any input on my areas of concern?
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Post by ameisenmeister on Mar 27, 2019 22:52:44 GMT
Your concerns are justified. Having the phase cost always be the mana cost seems a bit unflexible. Don't want to ruin your keyword but maybe you'd be better of just giving the creatures an activated ability that lets them phase out. Phasing is complicated enough anyway.
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Post by kefke on Mar 28, 2019 0:15:38 GMT
Your concerns are justified. Having the phase cost always be the mana cost seems a bit unflexible. Don't want to ruin your keyword but maybe you'd be better of just giving the creatures an activated ability that lets them phase out. Phasing is complicated enough anyway. Phasing on it's own I think is only confusing because of the cyclical nature, and the board states it creates. Phasing out as something that gets triggered deliberately, I think is less so. It's more or less "This gets moved to a special zone where nobody can do anything with it until your next turn. It is still in play.", which isn't so bad (and yes, I know that's not a perfect explanation, but it's close enough to explain 99% of all cases). The problem with the original mechanic was that everything with the Phasing keyword keeps going back and forth, all at the same time, and creates a massive amount of bookkeeping that has to be done every turn. |
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Post by ameisenmeister on Mar 28, 2019 10:57:13 GMT
I don't completely disagree with you but what I meant was that you would have to explain what "phases out" means so you kind of have two keywords in one.
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Post by kefke on Mar 28, 2019 13:26:26 GMT
I don't understand that philosophy at all. There are lots of rules terms that get used within keywords and don't need to be defined each time.
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Post by ameisenmeister on Mar 28, 2019 14:00:44 GMT
For example?
Don't want to be surly here but I imagine some people who haven't been playing Magic for 10+ years seeing a card that says "Cardname phases out". They simply wouldn't know what that means. That in itself isn't a big problem but you are, by creating a new mechanic that contains phasing, adding another layer of complexity. For not much of a reason imho. |
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Post by Jéské Couriano on Mar 28, 2019 19:30:31 GMT
I don't understand that philosophy at all. There are lots of rules terms that get used within keywords and don't need to be defined each time. The issue here is that phasing is an expert-level keyword and, like it or not, "phases out" invokes it. As a consequence, you'd need to include at least some of the phasing RT (i.e. the parts about what being phased-out means and when it will phase back in).
If a keyword invokes an expert-level keyword, you're obliged to include any relevant RT.
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Post by kefke on Mar 28, 2019 21:23:29 GMT
"Expert level keyword"
Guys...we make homebrew cards. I don't think anyone playing with customs is beginner level.
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Post by Jéské Couriano on Mar 29, 2019 0:32:10 GMT
"Expert level keyword" Guys...we make homebrew cards. I don't think anyone playing with customs is beginner level. Even people who have been playing the game for years can blank on a particular expert-level keyword, especially if it's one that hasn't been seen for ages like phasing. |
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Post by kefke on Mar 29, 2019 2:01:48 GMT
"Expert level keyword" Guys...we make homebrew cards. I don't think anyone playing with customs is beginner level. Even people who have been playing the game for years can blank on a particular expert-level keyword, especially if it's one that hasn't been seen for ages like phasing. Fair, but it's not that hard to check the wiki...and I mean, it's not like the Card of the Week right now doesn't use a term from 13 years ago without defining it. There's a point where you've just got to accept that people can look things up if they don't know. If you have to spell everything out in reminder text every time, then there's no point in having things keyworded at all. |
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temawimag
2/2 Zombie
Posts: 137
Favorite Card: Elite Arcanist
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Post by temawimag on Mar 29, 2019 6:03:04 GMT
I have a card that I'm not certain about in terms of color identity.  The card itself is white because of the name (it's a top-down design for mana fixing), but the actual effect there I'm not too certain of. |
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Post by hydraheadhunter on Mar 29, 2019 10:34:51 GMT
Translation rune's effect seems really strong at first glance until you realize that for most intents and purposes it boils down to a variation on chromatic lantern, but like, worse(?). With chromatic lantern you don't get rainbow mana from your mana rocks (but like why would you run rocks you couldn't use) but you do get to spend it on activated abilities, triggers, additional costs, etc, and it doesn't tap for mana itself ![]() . But if you made it cost {1}{W} it'd definitely be too powerful. Maybe {1}{W} with a downside would find it some balance. |
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Post by Daij_Djan on Mar 29, 2019 11:27:29 GMT
@ kefke : Feel free to prove me wrong, but as far as I know, Reach is actually the only keyword referring to another keyword (a.k.a. flying, the single most well-known and flavorful keyword in the entire game  ) within its reminder text..
That aside, I do have a small crush on Phasing stuff, so I do really like the concept - but why is the wording so complicated?
Elusive <cost> (<cost>: This creature phases out. While phased out, it's treated as if it doesn't exist, and it phases in during your next untap step.)
You don't need the instant clause as you may activate all non-loyality abilities at that speed anyway unless the ability states otherwise - no idea why this wasn't mentioned so far But I do agree adding the basic explanation of Phasing itself should be added. Suspend at least is Modern legal and featured on cards people actually play to this day
Also I did add a cost rather than have it always be the casting cost of the card again as a balancing tool. Concerning the potentially problematic gameplay, you're not completely off. Thing is, this basically is a new take on the Regenerate mechanic (except it's more usefull against blacks -X/-X stuff or white exile effects) so it can roughly be balanced as such. But Regenerate never had a high as-fan within sets as it makes targeted removal bad (for obvious reasons) and leads to stalls. That's why I think it might not be the best idea to use it as a set theme mechanic but rather either as an unkeyworded small cycle or as you own custom evergreen mechanic (which would allow slotting it in multiple products over time in smaller numbers each).
@ temawimag : As far as I can tell, Celestial Dawn is the only colored card without any restrictions to basically have this kind of effect - so in my bood, this would be fine. I wouldn't suggest putting an effect like that at uncommon, though - definitely feels more at home at rare for complexity and game changing reasons.. |
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Post by Jéské Couriano on Mar 29, 2019 21:17:58 GMT
@ kefke : Feel free to prove me wrong, but as far as I know, Reach is actually the only keyword referring to another keyword (a.k.a. flying, the single most well-known and flavorful keyword in the entire game ) within its reminder text.. Suspend (on creatures) grants haste as part of its effect.
Kefke ) Not everyone has access to a computer or a smartphone to check rules in the middle of a game. (Bear in mind that some of us playtest with paper, not program.)
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Post by Daij_Djan on Mar 29, 2019 21:27:06 GMT
True indeed - also I remembered the recent Riot mechanic after posting. But still, it only happens on really rare occasions and only evergreens are ever referred to this way. |
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Post by Jéské Couriano on Mar 29, 2019 22:00:36 GMT
Daij Djan ) I should also note that you've essentially turned this into Rainbow Efreet's ability.
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Post by murdermeatball on Apr 4, 2019 13:48:06 GMT
Hi there, I’m trying to make a cycle of escalate cards when I ran into a question/potential problem. When you escalate, do you choose your targets before you resolve any of the choices? I made a card like this: [Name] 2G Instant Escalate 2G (Pay this cost for each mode chosen beyond the first.) Choose one or more — • Create a 3/3 green Beast creature token. • Put two +1/+1 counters on target creature. • Target creature you control deals damage equal to its power to target creature you don’t control. Attachment Deletedand my goal was for you to be able to choose the token that is created as the target for the other abilities if you wanted to. But I can't get my head around if that is possible with the current wording or if there is any wording (that can fit on a card) that would allow that to happen. Grateful for some helpful assistance! Cheers! |
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temawimag
2/2 Zombie
Posts: 137
Favorite Card: Elite Arcanist
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Post by temawimag on Apr 4, 2019 16:02:26 GMT
Hi there, I’m trying to make a cycle of escalate cards when I ran into a question/potential problem. When you escalate, do you choose your targets before you resolve any of the choices? I made a card like this: [Name] 2G Instant Escalate 2G (Pay this cost for each mode chosen beyond the first.) Choose one or more — • Create a 3/3 green Beast creature token. • Put two +1/+1 counters on target creature. • Target creature you control deals damage equal to its power to target creature you don’t control. View Attachmentand my goal was for you to be able to choose the token that is created as the target for the other abilities if you wanted to. But I can't get my head around if that is possible with the current wording or if there is any wording (that can fit on a card) that would allow that to happen. Grateful for some helpful assistance! Cheers! The target needs to exist while the modes are being selected, same as any other modal card or instant. Escalate just lets you pick more than one mode to execute, so it would be like trying to make a spell that says "Put a +1/+1 counter on target creature. Put a 3/3 green Beast creature token onto the battlefield" (It works the same when the effects are reversed, but typically mentions of targets are put near the beginning) - the token would not be able to be a valid target for either mode. To get around this, you need to make the buff more or the damage mode not care about targets and choose after resolution in a meaningful way, or, probably the more cleaner solution, put it on a modal 'enter the battlefield' effect for a 3/3 creature. |
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Post by murdermeatball on Apr 4, 2019 16:35:17 GMT
temawimag Thanks, that is what I thought. Thanks for clearing it up. Do you know if " ... a creature of your choice" would work as it does not target (borrowing the wording fromAjani's Aid)? Or do you still have to choose before resolving any of the modes?
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Post by Daij_Djan on Apr 4, 2019 17:07:07 GMT
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Post by murdermeatball on Apr 4, 2019 21:06:48 GMT
Daij_Djan Thanks for the help and confirmation, I'll do that then. Cheers! 
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Post by 2wb on May 4, 2019 19:14:14 GMT
As a huge fan of dice, I wanted to try using some for a set, but I quickly realized that trying to reduce the randomness to a smaller effective range (ie. "roll two dice and use the difference", "roll two dice and use one for this and one for that") made the text's templating feel awkward. So, I'm here to ask how I should proceed with the basic idea of "use dice" or if general consensus is "don't". I jumped to trying to work it in as a walker first, because it seemed more appropriate... for no particular reason, in retrospect. My iterations were: {Spoiler}  Roll two dice. Exile cards from the top of your library equal to one result. Until end of turn, you may play those cards. Add  equal to the other result. This tried to solve it by giving you choice, but I think the abilities chosen aren't the right pair due to having to pick how many to exile before seeing the exiled cards (and therefore their costs and how much mana you want for them).  Roll three dice. Deal damage to any target equal to the difference between any pair of dice. This yields, somewhat nicely, approximately only a 3% chance of doing nothing; a 14% chance of 1 or 5 damage, a 22% chance for 2 or 4 damage, and a 25% chance for 3 damage. It was going for maximum reduction of variance, but I think at this point it would be better to just say "Roll a die and deal damage to any target equal to the result", despite the amplified swinginess of it (16.67% for each of 1 through 6). For the difference between two dice, the odds are awful-- 16.7% chance of nothing, 27.8% chance of 1, 22.2% chance of 2, 16.7% chance of 3, 11.1% chance of 4, and 5.6% chance of 5. Honestly speaking, it doesn't fill me with confidence that it'd be fun due to low influence, unless it's some constantly repeating or nearly free effect, since the probability of 'nothing' just feels painfully large.  Roll three dice. Deal damage to any two targets equal to one result. Draw cards equal to another result. Add equal to the last result. This almost certainly introduces too much bizarreness, but I think it gets closer to actually reading sensibly? Roll a die. Add , or deal damage to any target, equal to the result. This was the most "natural" phrasing I could come up with, but it still feels awkward to read "Add equal to the result", and making the reader reassemble that from the clausing. I think it would parse better if I just gave up and repeated the text -- "Add equal to the result, or deal damage to any target equal to the result", but that feels awkward and wasteful to me. edit1: Spoiler didn't work correctly. edit2: I'm dumb, the template is "Add an amount of M equal to...". Oops. |
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Post by Jéské Couriano on May 8, 2019 19:41:49 GMT
General consensus is don't. Whenever Wizards has used dice themselves, it's been exclusively in Silver-Bordered Land (specifically Unglued and Unstable). I'm guessing that it's because they feel d6 rolls are manipulable, similar to Falling Star and Chaos Orb. |
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DisposableHero
0/0 Germ
Posts: 8
Formerly Known As: Disposable Hero with a space
Favorite Card: Mulldrifter
Favorite Set: Future Sight
Color Alignment: Blue, Red, Green
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Post by DisposableHero on May 13, 2019 22:53:03 GMT
Hey y'all, trying a new mechanic out, wanted some feedback. I'm concerned if it's over or underpowered.
Willpower X (You may cast this spell any time you could cast an instant. If you do, counter it unless you discard X cards as you cast this spell.)
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kinotherapy
6/6 Wurm
stupid kor i just fell out of the floor
Posts: 322
Favorite Card: Ruthless Raider
Favorite Set: Rising Tides
Color Alignment: Blue, Black, Red
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Post by kinotherapy on May 14, 2019 16:26:52 GMT
Hey y'all, trying a new mechanic out, wanted some feedback. I'm concerned if it's over or underpowered. Willpower X (You may cast this spell any time you could cast an instant. If you do, counter it unless you discard X cards as you cast this spell.)It would make more sense as an additional cost imo, something like Willpower X (You may cast this spell as though it had flash if you discard an additional X cards to cast it.)As for power level, it's hard to imagine any case where it's overpowered, since the best case of flashing a spell is usually getting a 2 for 1 which would just make up for the card disadvantage. I can't imagine any cases where I would want to use willpower 2 or greater unless I desperately needed to. |
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Post by Jéské Couriano on May 14, 2019 19:31:45 GMT
I can't imagine any cases where I would want to use willpower 2 or greater unless I desperately needed to.
I can see it being useful in a graveyard-matters set, but even then willpower 2 would be the absolute maximum I would tolerate.
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Evil Coco
2/2 Zombie
Posts: 110
Favorite Set: Shadowmoor
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Post by Evil Coco on May 20, 2019 20:27:37 GMT
Trying out a new mechanic (don't mind the costs, just put them there for visuals sake)  |
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Post by Jéské Couriano on May 21, 2019 20:50:09 GMT
Haiku ) This wouldn't work for black-bordered. Similar mechanics do exist in silver-border, however ( Curse of the Fire Penguin).
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) within its reminder text..
"When in doubt, do a common." 
