The MageLaughlin Group, s1e15

Don't make me send that sockpuppet to Customer Service, you two.

When I first saw that question, I was thinking in terms of colors rather than players, so I was going to say White given how blue, black, and red/green (in that general order) have all been really susceptible to becoming extremely warped (accidentally in the former two, deliberately in the latter two) in an attempt to make them exciting or attractive for one reason or another. White is mostly known for stellar removal (and taxing), so it's harder to produce the kind of one-offs you see with things like Dreadhorde Arcanist or Chatterstorm. A lot of busted cards in general past and present seem to be about generating lots of card advantage and with no mass LD in sight and fairly costed boardwipes the only way I see it happening is via Gideon, Ally of Zendikar type design, and that's more a fault of designing too strong Planeswalkers than it being White.

Player-wise? I think it would probably be Vorthos or Melvin. Timmy goes hand in hand with the desire to make pushed/busted creatures and pws (we've seen a lot of those lately) and Johnny still spawns cards like Underworld Breach or Fires of Invention - Spike feels comparatively safer but the desire to push cards to make them relevant can result in things like Baneslayer Angel or Lurrus of the Dream-Den. Melvin requires close inspection of mechanics and their consequences (something that cards like Hogaak and Oko are often a consequence of a lack of) and usually when a card is specifically made to appeal to Vorthos like Serra the Benevolent it tends to be on the less remarkable side in terms of power or carefully scaled back like the recent Urzas and Mishras.

This may be horribly biased, but I believe that the most balanced designs come from catering to the Social Gamer Timmy/Tammy.  SGTs like myself want to maximize fun for the greatest number of participants.  Our credo is "If even one person isn't having fun, then I'm not having fun."  Catering to thispsychographic subset is what gets designs like Howling Mine, Rites of Flourishing, and any other card that provides a benefit to all players.  The Group Hug archetype is the flagship of SGTs.

Now, some would argue that Group Hug's evil twin, Bear Hug (aka Group Slug), could be a logical extension of that philosophy, but I say that that's a fallacy, as most Bear Hug decks make use of cards that punish all buth their controller.  This kind of unequal "justice" is anathema to SGTs--indeed, if an SGT were to design a card that demerits players, it would do so to ALL players!

"I have it, therefore you should, too"/"I can't have it, therefore no one should either" is the name of the game, and catering to THAT; that's what avoids breaking things!

But what about planeswalkers?

Glad you asked, Mel.  With the current design philosophy of 'walkers, no matter R&D's initial intent, almost all are Control pieces, just by the very nature of planeswalkers, unfortunately.  There are two ways to avoid this, one of which WotC has already done, and that's make the 'walkers as niche as possible.  Unfortunately, if this design philosophy is not strictly adhered to for ALL 'walkers, you get the current situation, where when was the last time you saw or even heard of anyone running any of those linked-to 'walkers?  That's because EVERY OTHER 'WALKER is stupidly overpowered when compared to the niche 'walkers.


The other way involves a bit of a digression.  Years ago, I came up with a series of designs for Hive block that expanded on the ability of Imperial Mask, except that it gave a token copy to each other player.  If all 'walkers going forward had the ability "When this permanent enters the battlefield, if it isn't a token, each other player creates a token copy of it", I might not be so down on 'walkers all the damn time, because, as I said previously, errbody gets to have them.  #GivePlaneswalkersToEverybodyCowards





Our next Question is from ZephyrPhantom : WoTC has teased a new card type, Battle, via Atraxa, Grand Unifier. What do you think this card type will be like, and what do you think of the recent introductions of cards like Sagas, Classes, and Dungeons that have many effects on one card?

Yeah, I would really like that – always a big fan of this concept whenever it comes up Don't think that's what we'll end up with, though. As several people have mentioned, I also believe Battle will be the Skirmish mechanic WotC toyed with for Battle of the Spark..


I believe all of these mechanics need to be seperated into three categories:

• Cards that work completely on their own like Sagas or Classes, just use unusual templating
  I have absolutely no issues with these – on the contrary, I really like the ones I can think of right now.
• Cards introducing extra game pieces like the Monarch, Day/Night, Initiative
  „Reading the card explains the card“ is sadly dead nowadays. Ironically, I didn't mind it much when the Monarch started this – I actually liked it back then. But the more concepts like this WotC introduces to the game, the more they start annoying me.
• Cards introducing extra decks like Stickers, Attractions
  No, just no. OK sure, completely fine for Un-Sets, but these should have never ended up being legal in Eternal formats. Btw, if I may, as a side-question concerning a topic we missed: Any short thoughts on Unfinity being a mixture of Eternal leagal and silver bordered acorn?

Btw, my first thought when reading that part of the question was a recent video from the Professor – especially the next two and a half minutes:

I lost it at 9:04.  That vid is top-tier shitposting.



As for Battle, I too was gonna answer the skirmish mechanic, prolly after fruitlessly searching for at least a couple of hours because I didn't remember the name, only a vague sense of what MaRo was saying about it, and a vague sense of when he said it.  I'd most likely be way off, because my recollection would've been guided by Contested War Zone, which, let's be honest, can prolly be considered a proto-Battle, as well as a proto-monarch, and a proto-initiative (and mebbe about a half dozen more, besides).  But thanks to Daij_Djan, I can waste that time in a different way, so thanks!

Sagas are excellent, so long as they aren't too ubiquitously powerful, like Elspeth Conquers Death (and I have further beef with this card and other contemporary removal that leave NO mana value safe zones, but that's a different story for possibly a different Episode), or Kiora Bests the Sea God; but for some reason, I don't really like the read ahead mechanic.  Mebbe it's the fact that they were too timid in the execution of all of them, making all the read ahead Sagas feel way too weak at every single chapter (and even all chapters taken as a whole).  It feels weird to argue against things being too powerful, then in the next breath argue that things weren't powerful enough, but this is what happens when we react to overreactions.  Otoh, Sagas are fixed planeswalkers, and that fact alone makes them almost better than planeswalkers, at least from a Mel point of view.

I adore Classes, and wish they'd do more with them.  However, with the Alchamy rebalancing of Wizard Class, I really wish they'd gone even further and switched Levels 2 & 3!  Do you have any idea how much of a feelbad it is to have to activate a second Wizard Class to Level 2, with an already fully-upgraded Wizard Class on the board, just to be able to dig for the possibility of getting a creature?!  Errbody else gets errthing all the time, no charge, why can't my favorite toys get errthing?!

I also love Dungeons, but even I know that there need to be a limit, and while I have yet to play with the initiative, I too worry that that was that limit, and WotC incautiously crossed it far too quickly, and far too long ago, for there to be anything to correct it, short of looking to the future.  I feel the need to reintroduce my previous suggestion of hard limits to format legality of certain cards: these cards are for these/this format, and no others.

But you and the Prof. are all right that in a vacuum, each isn't too bad, fun and exciting even, but nothing is designed in a vacuum, and there needs to be a more holistic view in design and development, because all of them together, while making for superior shitposting, just makes for overly cluttered and unfocused game design.  Can you just imagine trying to teach all these things to a former player who dropped out around Apocalypse?  "Don't worry, it's still the same game." 



Our next Question is another from ZephyrPhantom: WoTC has indicated that some Phyrexians aside from Urabrask are starting to feel something other than blind obedience to the appeal of being compleat - the backstory for Ixhel, Scion of Atraxa and Vishgraz, the Doomhive has Ixhel confused and somewhat protective over the fact Phyrexia did not accept her surrogate son Vishgraz as a creation matching Phyrexian ideals. Likewise, Mox Opal (and of course Urabrask himself) have suggested Phyrexians are starting to deviate here and there?



Do you think Phyrexians learning to 'feel' is an interesting idea that could stick in the Magic story? Could Phyrexians manage to stick on a plane without ruining it for everyone else?

ZephyrPhantom: Frankly, I'm liking the injection of a little realpolitik and f.o.w. into our "silly little card game".  It shows a more mature understanding of the vagaries of warfare and internescine politics.  Plus, the Quiet Furnace may be friendly (or, at least not openly/actively hostile) to the Mirran resistance, but we're still talking about a people who see blades for arms, legs, heads, teeth, and/or internal organs (and vice versa) as a viable upgrade to standard biology.  Admittedly, this can lead to some awkward moments, as even if that Phyrexian was friendly, and was only offering that Mirran a hug, that hug still consisted of innumerable, razor-sharp, nasty, big, pointy* blades.





*I swear, it's just a coincidence that that video link has UwU in it.

Ok, good point.

But, counterpoint, mebbe some people got ripsnortin' drunk?  Boys will be boys?

I think it's okay for people to comment mid-episode if they want. Forcing it to happen only at the end of the episode might make it more stilted.

Sorry for the late response – honestly I don't really have much to say about this. Problem is: Back when Phyrexia was around last time, I wasn't interested in the story at all. Obviously I've heard quite a bit about them over the years nethertheless, but I've never read anything written from their perspective.

Likewise as we talked about a while back, I'm still a bit burnt out of the Magic product turnout – and haven't really read the new stories as well because of it (few snippets aside). Always wanted to do so, but somehow nether had the motivation to really sit down for it.

So without having any idea what I'm talking about, I'll just speculate about one thing: Back in the past, the phyrexians were pretty much placed exclusively monoblack. Their modern counterparts are spread all over the color pie instead (which I really like – always love it when WotC does villians to fight against the “white = good | black = evil“ misconception), so giving them different characteristics and expanding their way of thinking is a logical consequence imho. Why have so many characters if they all behaved identically anyway, right?



Interesting, might be true. But honestly, I care much more about this. Gnshhagghkkapphribbit.

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Daij's post makes a good point that not everyone on the panel (or commenting on this thread) may be interested in the same things tbh. I kind of took interest for Phyrexia for granted since it's been such a long running villain that generally gets a lot of positive feedback from the entrenched mtg fandom. We should still do topical questions like that ofc but it's still an interesting thing to see.

I've had someone in my playgroup who has been basically arguing that every mechanic should be evergreen for a while now. I'm usually against the idea because as someone who used to be into making Time Spiral type sets I got pretty onboard with the idea that "Every set is someone's first set." Lots of complexity and jank is exciting for enfranchised players but can be confusing to new ones.

So to me, making more keywords deciduous tells me that WoTC is more confident with moving the minimum complexity needed to grasp the game up, rather than down. Even if it functionally makes no difference if everything has reminder text, that's still one (or many) more new things for new players to process when they open a pack and it makes me a bit concerned about how easy it is to not just try Magic, but stick with it and enjoy it without some kind of playgroup to help ease you in.

On giving more mechanics deciduous status: overall, I really like it! Plenty of these have been a long time coming. 

Onto the specifics for each of these mechanics:
-Surveil: The most surprising things about surveil becoming deciduous are 1) it didn't happen sooner and 2) it came with card standardization. Which to someone who loves surveil as much as I do... yesssssssssssss finally! Heck I could even see an argument for surveil being in a similar "evergreen*" spot to protection (if protection is still evergreen), being sporadically used but always a tool in the toolbox (maybe even replacing scry sometimes)
-Landfall: This one is the most out-of-left-field one for me. It is a little weird how unlike alliance and similar, landfall gets to be special and show up everywhere. At the same time as a landfall lover you love to see it. 
-Cycling: This is another one that's been a long time coming. Cycling and its variants are so versatile and are such relatively basic tools that you can really stick them in any set no-problem, meaning deciduous is a perfect fit. Cycling can still be a major player in a set if it wants to be, but can also be used for other stuff too. In addition, this also means deciduous landcycling, which is extra pog.
-Affinity: ...I literally could have sworn this was already deciduous. Weird. Anyways, yeah, affinity makes sense because it's a decently common effect on cards, and bringing it back to mirrodin in a minor capacity was also a good call.
-Flashback: People have been calling for flashback to become deciduous for years. It finally happened. You love to see it. I also like how it was used in a relatively unusual fashion in ONE to mirror a card from Kaldheim that desperately wanted to have flashback lol. 

As for the previous question on Phyrexian 'reverse corruption'... since when was this new? It's been being set up since New Phyrexia that colored mana was twisting the Phyrexians as much as the Phyrexians twisted it (especially with Urabrask), so of course once we get a better look of New Phyrexia in the modern day we'd see more evidence of it. I feel like making Phyrexians feel is a very interesting plot concept that could pay dividends, but it all depends on execution. On Phyrexian coexistence... that's less likely, given  o i l. 

Dude, you just gave me an idea:

Stare Out into Space 
Instant
Scry 2.
Surveil 2.
Draw two cards.

Merely half a day later than expected and (even just barely) within the original deadline – that's basically „on time“ for my standards, no?

To start things of, I just wanted to quickly respond to this one:


Just to clarify: Back then I wasn't interested in the story at all – and I do like the phyrexians, I just haven't read any of their recent stories for reasons other then them being of no interest. I do have some „meta knowledge“ as I've read and heard others talk about them over the years, but that wouldn't help with answering the given question

Also yeah, this definitely has happend in the past as well – and I'd say it's totally fine. We're different people after all, so there have always been topics some are more interested in that others. I'd argue it would rather be borderline impossible to prevent this from happening in the future

---

Here's the deal: There's a reson some mechanics are evergreen / deciduous and others aren't. As ZephyrPhantom pointed out, mechanics increase the complexity of the game as they bind attention of the players. Also they've traditionally been a help, like an anker: „Look at this named mechanic, it's a theme so build around it and you'lle be fine.“ Let's be real, that's pretty much the only reason mechanics like Landfall exist in the first place

Obviously this isn't important for experienced players (let alone fan designers like us who indeed mix together whatever we want on a regular basis anyway ), but for less experienced players let alone beginners this change might end up being a bigger deal.

So why is WotC fine with this change nethertheless? Are they fine with the increased complexity as suggested above? Do they flat out don't care? Or are they maybe even unhappy with the change but need the additional design space they give themselves with it? Or it could just be another aspect of Magic focussing more and more on the Commander format, since everything previously mentioned is much more important in Limited and to a lesser extend Standard than in Commander – where WotC has been doing one-off mechanics for a long time already anyway..?

So with this out of the way, here's my thoughts on the mechanics chosen:

• Cycling / Flashback: If WotC wants to grant more mechanics deciduous status, then these two pretty much are the most obvious / logical candidats. Both mechnics have been used many, many times and many players asked for them turning evergreen or deciduous for years..
• Landfall: One might argue choosing an ability word to be a bit weird in the first place since it has no rules meaning anyway, but still: Landfall is the most beloved ability word of all time if I remember correctly, so I'm not supprised at all. In a few years, it would most likely have been in the same spot as Cycling and Flashback nowadays.
• Affinity: This is the one I don' get. Like not at all. Affinity is insanely powerful and I cannot imagine it showing up on a frequent basis – even with WotC having learned their lessing in how broken Affinity for artifacts can be on artifacts themselves. Yes, each set has an instance of cost reductions on cards – but almost exclusively these are fixed reductions like Admiral's Order or Academy Journeymage, no? Also I don't see much design space in cards that care about other having Affinity as much as for Cycling or Flashback as well, so I don't see them gaining much in keywording it even when used..
• Surveil: Not a big fan of this choice either, even though for very different reasons. The mechanic itself is totally fine – but it's way too close to Scry for my tastes. Reminds me of the Ward / Hexproof / Shroud situation in a bad way.. I'll be honest this is more of a personal taste issue rather than anything else.
  
  
  

  Mar 1, 2023 17:45:17 GMT foureyesisafish said:

  Heck I could even see an argument for surveil being in a similar "evergreen*" spot to protection (if protection is still evergreen), being sporadically used but always a tool in the toolbox (maybe even replacing scry sometimes)
  
  
  That's pretty much the exact definiton of a deciduous mechanic – and yes, Protection is deciduous nowadays after havong lost its evergreen status.
  
  
  

  Mar 6, 2023 18:51:32 GMT foureyesisafish said:

  Addendum: only today, like a few days after posting this originally, surveil was confirmed to basically be evergreen.
  
  What did I miss?