|
Post by sdfkjgh on Apr 8, 2021 18:53:14 GMT
Live, from an abandoned thaumotoxic reagents storehouse deep in the Tenth District of Ravnica, it's The MageLaughlin Group!
Joining me is my esteemed panel, Daij_Djan, foureyesisafish, ArkiThe7th, dangerousdice, and now, in his first episode as an official member of the panel, ZephyrPhantom.
Apologies for running late, I self-sabotaged last night, stayed up too late, and woke up even later, so let's get right to the our First Question, from dangerousdice, with modifications by myself.
What are the panel's opinions on the five colleges of Strixhaven?
|
|
ArkiThe7th
1/1 Squirrel
Any plant is edible if you’re not a coward.
Posts: 82
Favorite Card: Wee Dragonauts
Favorite Set: Pauper Masters (wait a second...)
Color Alignment: Blue, Red
|
Post by ArkiThe7th on Apr 8, 2021 22:35:39 GMT
Lorehold: They seem to have some interesting graveyard effects, and I like the 3/2 spirit tokens. They seem to be exploring the Boros color identity a little bit more than they have in the past, which is fantastic. Boros always seems to be making a lot of tiny tokens and attacking with them. Lorehold is focusing more on the graveyard, which is something I’ve never seen Boros do before, but it makes sense.
Quandrix: It looks like Quandrix is doing pretty standard Simic stuff: counters, lands, and card draw. I’m kind of disappointed. There’s a lot more potential design space for Simic that they could’ve used. I think mana value matters would’ve been at least an excellent sub theme, considering it’s the college of math. But nope, once again, we get counters, lands, and card draw. Don’t get me wrong, I like Simic as much as anybody else, I just wish they were doing something new with it.
Prismari: These guys seem really cool. I find the ability to discard spells for treasure really interesting. It makes a lot of interesting decisions. You could either hold on to your big spell and wait until you find enough mana to cast it, or you could discard it to make treasure to fuel your other big spells. I also love how it’s not really the traditional Izzet spellslingers archetype. They could’ve easily fell into old routines, especially in a spells matter set, but they didn’t.
Silverquill: Oh, so that’s where the spellslingers went. The first thing I think when given Orzhov isn’t spellslingers, but it totally works. Black and white both have a lot of combat tricks, so the natural evolution of that in a spells matter set would be spellslingers. They also kinda hinted at this in Kaldheim with the second spell matters theme in black white. Orzhov always seemed to have the weakest unique mechanical identity, so I’m glad they’re fleshing it out. I like in general how much they’re exploring new design space in the colors (I’m looking at you, Quandrix). As a debate nerd, and a lover of Izzet blitz, I’ll probably tend towards Silverquill.
Witherbloom All of the life gain shenanigans are very cool. Usually something we see in Orzhov, but it feels right at home here. When I read the Witherbloom pitch, it seemed like they were gonna go in the classic graveyard/recursion direction of Golgari. I’m pleasantly surprised they didn’t. Not much else to say here. We’ve seen life gain done before, just not in Golgar, which is nice. They just don’t have much that intrigues me, or makes me want to play them.
Overall, I like the mechanical space they’re exploring, but I think they dropped the ball on a couple colleges. Oh, the college familiars are cool, too.
|
|
|
Post by dangerousdice on Apr 9, 2021 4:10:03 GMT
since I suggested the question, i'll wait for everyone else to ans-
never mind... I think that lorehold is a breath of fresh air! an-
the simic, marvoni.
their not called... oh never mind.
lorehold looks good, neo-simics boring.
|
|
foureyesisafish
7/7 Elemental
Posts: 386
Favorite Set: Ikoria: Lair of the Behemoths
Color Alignment: Blue, Red, Green
|
Post by foureyesisafish on Apr 9, 2021 12:15:03 GMT
Alright, time for my thoughts.
Lorehold: General Review: RW makes perfect sense for Indiana Jones-like archaeologists, but the mechanical identity of Lorehold was... unexpected to say the least. Graveyard in RW? Who would have seen that coming? But I feel like that new approach actually makes sense given what both colors can do. I'm excited to see if this is a one-time thing or a continued possible archetype going forward. 9/10 from me even if it isn't my cup of tea. Mascot Review: Spirits animating statues? Sign me up! One gripe is that they aren't Artifact Creature - Spirit, which would have been AWESOME! Still a 8/10 though.
Quandrix: General Review: Of all of Strixhaven's colleges, Quandrix has the loosest mechanical identity of any of the colleges. However, while Quandrix does have roughly the same general game plan as simic has for a while, the new elements introduced by Quandrix definitely make it stand out. The 8 land theme, focus on p/t modification and doubling, and the tokens that scale based on different circumstances all make Quandrix distinct from the Simic Combine, even if it is more Simic goodstuff. Also, bonus points for making GU not broken. I'll give Quandrix a painful 8/10 despite loving the flavor why. Mascot Review: Oh my, fractals look awesome. I love their unique design and their unique mathematical focus. Also, these guys synergize with the base P/T modifications of Quandrix really well. 9/10 from me.
Prismani: General Review: I'll be honest, I expected Prismani to be a very traditional Izzet spellcaster faction. I was very, very wrong. Looking back, the "big mana" archetype actually fits the artist flavor really well. In addition, Prismani were the only faction to get an actual faction mechanic, in this case treasure, which is practically deciduous at this point. Loving the new approach. 9/10 from me. Mascot Review: These elementals are so weird and are such a great departure from previous elementals that they give the Prismani a really unique aesthetic. 8/10.
Silverquill: General Review: Now that WB aggro is here... I'm left wondering how it never came before. I like how WB's combat tricks evolved into an entire spellslinger aggro archetype, and I love how +1/+1 counters are used way outside where they expect them to be. WB could have 100% been the counters guild of Ravnica if GU wasn't. Silverquill raises interesting questions and has interesting lore. Still an 8/10 though. Just not my thing. Mascot Review: Inklings are very interesting, but eh, they aren't my taste. Still not bad though. 7/10
Witherbloom: General Review: When I started out with Strixhaven's spoilers, Quandrix was my favorite college. By the end, the Witherbloom supplanted them. Witherbloom is a mix of BG lifegain and BG aristocrats/sacrifice, a very unique combination, with the latter even lining up with a faction in a set of mine. While recursion still shows up in Witherbloom, it takes a back seat to other themes, which allows Witherbloom to stay out from under Golgori's shadow. The flavor of Witherbloom also knocks it out of the park, being a biology-themed alchemy college located in a swamp. They even have a detention bog! 10/10 and it's my chosen college. WITHERBLOOM PRIDE! Mascot Review: Pests are adorable, diverse, and a truly unexpected return. I love this new take and I hope they show up more often. 11/10.
Overall, they absolutely knocked it out of the park here, with even the least defined college being pretty different from its Ravnica counterpart.
|
|
|
Post by ZephyrPhantom on Apr 9, 2021 15:02:52 GMT
Lorehold: I think this is where we saw the majority of "Give White card advantage" cards go, ranging from the more direct approaches like Mila, Crafty Companion to more classic hatebear value like Strict Proctor. I wanted to address this part first because it seems generally agreed upon that this is more an EDH problem than a Standard problem, and I'd say in that sense it feels like they've managed to respect both groups. We haven't seen White get anything that is at least without precedent in Magic history and most if not all of these value pieces seem at okay power levels for older formats. There wasn't anything particularly notable about the MonoRed half of Lorehold for me, though Conspiracy Theorist opens up new interesting interactions in Legacy with well known cards like Lion's Eye Diamond. I think the Boros cards went really hard on the card draw/card advantage aspects of WR seeing as almost every multicolored card has something to do with the graveyard, creating a token, or drawing a card somehow - Lorehold Excavation in particular could've flat out been UB in a different set. I think overall they got the message across that Boros can be more than just "the combat color pairing" and I imagine we'll see this in future Boros design as well. Prismari: I think overall this was the least exciting/remarkable faction in terms of the mission statement of "We deviated from the guild stereotypes" of cards. A lot of effects like Maelstrom Muse were things we've seen already and I can't particularly recall any exciting monoblue or monored cards of note that were explicitly part of this faction (maybe Ingenious Mastery, I guess). The most exciting thing they had to offer overall in my opinion was the the modal ability to create Treasure as depicted on cards like Creative Outburst - otherwise, I feel like this faction really made me feel that Strixhaven was much more loose with its factions than Ravnica's more explicit "everything is tied to something or someone" design. Mind, I'm sure the "big instants and sorceries matter" combined with Treasures subtheme will lend itself to some kind of interesting deck, and the focus on art as opposed to science was a good choice, but I didn't feel like the faction was as thematically focused as the others. Silverquill: Aside from Elite Spellbinder being the other interesting hatebear of the set, cards like Leonin Lightscribe, Clever Lumimancer, and Show of Confidence seem to indicate the half of this faction is based on Jeskai Prowess-based ideas of using combat tricks to get in lots of combat damage, while the half of this faction was....well, mostly used to plug the gaps with tokens, counters, and life loss like Umbral Juke and Tenured Inkcaster, as a good chunk of seems to have been taken up by Witherbloom, Extus, and Liliana-based cards. Nevertheless, Killian, Ink Duelist summarizes the faction up very neatly in a nutshell - they clearly want to be targeting creatures often with instant and sorcery support, whether it's buffs pointed at their own creatures or removal pointed at others. It's a good departure from the Orzhov themes of graveyards and lifedrain and I think the color pairing makes a good show of being the "best removal color pair" with things like Vanishing Verse and Fracture coming to the table, putting it in solid competition with similar more popular cards like Assassin's Trophy and much more recently Mortality Spear that are released fairly often. Witherbloom: Similar to Prismari I felt like this faction was kind of all over the place and frankly pretty Golgari relative to the mission statement. Pests that lifegain on death and the related sacrifice cards bring to mind the more commonly remembered cards of The Rock and Jund decks such as Scavenging Ooze and while we had plenty of exciting cards like Daemogoth Titan, Blex, Vexing Pest, and Culling Ritual, I think the thematic identity of the faction was kind of all over the place to the point Harness Infinity could be reprinted in almost any set featuring a GB color pair without question. I find them more mechanically exciting but less thematically 'different' than Prismari, but on the whole I think this works out in their favorite relative to the factions in the set because they have more cards that seem useful to be put in a deck or unusual enough to be worth brewing. Quandrix: I think when Quandrix Command first got spoiled I was worried this would be the faction that would be most generically like its guild, and the end result was that while it didn't deviate a lot it did deviate meaningfully enough compared to Witherbloom and Prismari to give itself a meaningfully unique identity. MaRo's talked the about the concept of "square creatures" with equal Power and Toughness before so seeing it come out as a full faction theme featuring cards like Symmetry Sage, Master Symmetrist, Square Up, Golden Ratio, and the various Fractal Token cards was very aesthetically pleasing even if many of the effects were just a power/toughness-manipulating way of accomplishing the same effects we get every set. I like that Kasmina, Enigma Sage and her previous cards all make sense relative to this faction while her card this set retains a unique Planeswalker-matters theme (speaking of which, whatever happened to that whole lore tidbit about Strixhaven awakening Planeswalkers? Aside from Will and Rowan we didn't exactly see much of that.) All in all I found them a fresh take on Simic-style gameplay and a good demonstration of how Magic is capable of doing similar gameplay in a mechanically/thematically fresh way with the right knobs and dials. The Death Eaters Oriq: Technically not a faction, but they seemed to take up a decent chunk of WB and to a lesser extent U. I feel like their main contribution was Oriq Loremage, which seems like it could encourage all sorts of unusual graveyard shenanigans, though Plumb the Forbidden is also interesting. Apparently Lukka and Extus also made a contract of sorts, so I'm curious to see what that results in in the future. In terms of thematic strength I think I'd say Lorehold > Quandrix > Prismari > Silverquill > Witherbloom were the best at demonstrating a meaningfully distinct identity to me considering WoTC's mission statement this set. While Silverquill is very interesting mechanically we didn't exactly see a lot about their writing/literature-based antics that was particularly memorable (and again I think this is partially because they most directly share their space with the Oriq's story cards and Liliana, among others.) I found Prismari's aesthetics interesting but it didn't feel like they were used in any meaningful or clever ways other than to show Rowan was good at blowing things up while Will was good at studying, neither of which really relate to the theme. While Quandrix didn't do anything relevant plotwise, I felt like the math theme was very firmly established to the point you could be very certain which monocolor cards belonged to them even without looking at the art or thinking for a second, and I feel like using square creatures to represent caring about math worked greatly in their favor. Witherbloom unfortunately just strikes me as Golgari biologists that arbitarily know dark magic (heck, if Mortality Spear is any indication, they didn't even think of using biochemistry themes for support cards - a lot of the Demons and removal could've been reflavored to be things like acid elementals or toxic smog of some kind.) In terms of mechanical pitches I'd say Quandrix > Silverquill > Witherbloom = Lorehold > Prismari make me want to play them the most. Quandrix and Silverquill both have very explicit and cohesive mechanical themes right off the bat, even if Silverquill suffers from having many other factions take up their space, and I think theme decks based on their existing cardpool feel like they'd be successful in a vacuum. Witherbloom has a lot of exciting and useful individual cards and even if they don't all immediately line up to a cohesive strategy, I can at least see what the faction is trying to get at. While a lot of Lorehold cards are good and the Spirit/graveyard strategy is very explicit, if I take away all the pitches about card advantage the faction feels surprisingly average and somewhat overhyped. I have no doubt they'd do well, but I didn't find myself particularly enthusiastic about playing the faction as opposed to playing the various individual cards they got in other decks. Prismari did technically have distinct themes, but a lot of what I saw felt like things I'd seen happen in UR-type gameplay already, so I didn't find the approach meaningfully distinct or appealing. I think I would've liked to see more treasures-matter cards, more forms of cost decreasing, or more big spells that did unusual things as opposed to straight up damage and card draw. (For example, an extra turn card - we didn't get any this set - or a card that made Illusion or Artifact Dragon tokens as sort of a "we're making these ceremonial works in honor of our Founders" card.) PS - Wow, this was a wordy question to answer. Really puts in perspective how much work goes into making a faction, let alone assessing them...
|
|
foureyesisafish
7/7 Elemental
Posts: 386
Favorite Set: Ikoria: Lair of the Behemoths
Color Alignment: Blue, Red, Green
|
Post by foureyesisafish on Apr 9, 2021 16:04:01 GMT
Wow Zephyr, you had some of the opposite impressions of me, especially on witherbloom. To me, the Golgori were always focused on recursion and the graveyard, while Witherbloom don't have that explicit focus.
|
|
|
Post by ZephyrPhantom on Apr 9, 2021 16:49:42 GMT
Wow Zephyr, you had some of the opposite impressions of me, especially on witherbloom. To me, the Golgori were always focused on recursion and the graveyard, while Witherbloom don't have that explicit focus. Cards like Assassin's Trophy, Abrupt Decay, and Vraska the Unseen have consistently demonstrated that the Golgari are no slouches in the generic removal department, and Witherbloom certainly doesn't disappoint in that area. While it's true that the Golgari are particularly memorable for antics involving things like Dredge and Deathrite Shaman, Witherbloom still has a decent smattering of cards ranging from Unwilling Ingredient and Pestilent Cauldron to the aforementioned Harness Infinity in addition to trying to mix in various other typical BG effects to what they do. I will admit cards like Brackish Trudge and Morality Spear do favor the lifegain theme - perhaps it would be more correct on my end to say Witherbloom feels halfway between Golgari and Jund, with something like Marrow Chomper not looking particularly out of place in Witherbloom at a quick glance. Aesthetically I feel like the similarities are even closer, what with both rocking similar "icky biomatter" themes, with the main difference being the Golgari are doing it for agriculture and combat while Witherbloom tries to give off more field biologist vibes, so I guess your mileage can vary on how significant a difference that is. I think the reason I found Prismari relatively cut-and-dry compared to the more excited reactions you and ArkiThe7th brought up is partially because "cast big spells" and "copy big spells" are themes I feel I've seen very often before. Mizzix of the Izmagnus, Kaza, Roil Chaser, and Melek, Izzet Paragon for example. Previous memorable Izzet spells like Cyclonic Rift and Mizzium Mortars are generally also remembered for being cast in their 'big' modes modes more than their 'small' modes, so I found a decent bit of overlap there as well, as the Izzet as a guild have even previously dabbled in artist/artifice themes as well shown by cards like Glass Golem and Mizzium Transreliquat long before Return to Ravnica placed them fully as the Instant/Sorcery-focused guild. Basically, a lot of Prismari themes were already featured through the Izzet guild or previous UR cards, so it comes off a little more by the book to me compared to something like Lorehold that WoTC used as the big example of how the Colleges =/= guilds. P.S. - Also, I believe sdfkjgh's best friend, Ral, Storm Conduit, has some words of wisdom here.
|
|
|
Post by sdfkjgh on Apr 9, 2021 20:02:21 GMT
|
|
|
Post by Daij_Djan on Apr 9, 2021 20:44:17 GMT
Hi everyone, nice to be here once again First of all, I have to admit I didn't really have the time yet to dig into the upcoming set for real (if all goes well, I'll start Nizzahon's set reviews tomorrow ), so I don't really have to add anything deep about the colleges (especially their mechanical identities). What I can say however, is that I really, really like the general themes of the colleges. If you don't know much about it, I can only suggest listening to MaRo's recent podcast „Strixhaven Design, Part 1“ (Part 2 came out today, haven't listened to it yet) – in that episode he talks about the dualitiy of the five collages, the philosophical differences they were build upon in detail. Like how Lorehold being RW was based on the colors' view on society – the community vs. the individuum – which led to them studying societies and therefore history. As I knew all of those conflicts from various other discussions / media, listening to how these topics got woven into a Magic set's lore was fascinating to me. So in the end, while I can't say much about the cards themselves (including how well WotC achieved their goals), from the general flavor standpoint, I'm really happy about the five colleges and how much they differ from the Ravnican guilds.
|
|
ArkiThe7th
1/1 Squirrel
Any plant is edible if you’re not a coward.
Posts: 82
Favorite Card: Wee Dragonauts
Favorite Set: Pauper Masters (wait a second...)
Color Alignment: Blue, Red
|
Post by ArkiThe7th on Apr 10, 2021 11:18:02 GMT
I concur. I think they did an exceptional job in general. Even though Quandrix feels a little too close to home. I love enemy color pairs because they have so much great design space, so it’s great to see that explored.
|
|
|
Post by sdfkjgh on Apr 10, 2021 19:05:51 GMT
Lorehold: I'm really glad that R&D are finding new ways for to operate, beyond just the usual boring old "Attack attack attack". Never would've imagined Indiana Jones as a Loxodon, and yet, here we are.
Silverquill: I really like the idea of the mean girls, the ROTC, and the journalists all being under this same banner, and as explained by MaRo, it actually makes a lot of sense. However, once again, they've kinda bungled the representation of people with at least an outward appearance of Asian descent by falling back on racist stereotypes, and it's really disappointing that this shit keeps happening.
Witherbloom: Lifegain matters is a mechanic that is far too underutilized, especially out of , so I'm glad that they're exploring it here.
Quandrix: This one feels like they're underutilizing the stated mechanics by quite a bit. Like, there's something missing here, and all it would take to fill that hole would be to go even further into what's already there.
Prismari: Guys, I think I'm in love with Rootha's character. A hot Orc with a creative streak and emotional control issues? Yummy yummy yes please!
Teferi: Focus, Pinky, focus!
Right, right. Magecraft triggering off of copying spells is something that I'm surprised they haven't done before, and yet up till now, it's been as painfully obvious that they haven't done it before as it's been baffling why they haven't done it before. It's also further proof that nobody cares about Fork and Twincast anymore, like Evan Erwin has been saying for the past few years. Big spells matter is an interesting mechanical focus, but it seems a little too Commander-centric.
I mean, I get that the company is moving toward where the highest demand is, and it's always good to see a company so obviously listen to its customers so quickly, but they seem to constantly be doing so at the expense of the rest of the playerbase, and that's just not right. WotC isn't JUST Commander, and mcdonald's would never yank its entire product line to become 100% mcrib all the time. No company would, and yet, Wizards seems to be going in that direction, and that's a big problem.
Our next question comes from ZephyrPhantom: Over the course of the last episode, we talked about explosive payoffs that generate a lot of card advantage. How do you feel about payoffs like Rotting Regisaur and Mirror March that introduce curveballs or drawbacks to these kind of powerful effects?
|
|
ArkiThe7th
1/1 Squirrel
Any plant is edible if you’re not a coward.
Posts: 82
Favorite Card: Wee Dragonauts
Favorite Set: Pauper Masters (wait a second...)
Color Alignment: Blue, Red
|
Post by ArkiThe7th on Apr 11, 2021 0:34:49 GMT
I feel bad I didn’t even think about the stereotype issues with Silverquill. That’s really frustrating...
On to a lighter topic, I like Rotting Regisaur because discarding cards has a lot of interesting space to build around. There’s a lot of positives of discarding cards in black, so it makes deck building more fun.
Once you get to cards like Mirror March, I think you get into less explosive payoffs. Because Mirror March is so expensive, and you need to play a second card do get an effect out of it, it’s a lot less explosive. What makes cards like Snapcaster, Uro, Siege Rhino, or Thragtusk so good is that they work exceptionally well on their own, but get even stronger with other effects. You don’t need much build up for them to be useful. Mirror March, on the other hand, needs you to get to 6 mana, (sometimes difficult in fast formats) play it, and keep it around until your next turn to capitalize on it.
|
|
|
Post by ZephyrPhantom on Apr 11, 2021 11:23:50 GMT
While I do think there are some Asian stereotypes present in Silverquill (specifically, with Killian and his father), I'm not entirely sure how accurate or maliciously intended some of the other observed details are. The Honormancy connection in particular feels especially murky to me and I think that's about as far as I'm comfortable trying to make a statement on this. In regards to the question: Feel free to bring up other cards besides the two I listed. I brought up Mirror March because I recall reading that Mark Rosewater talked about it in an article, where the randomness is deliberately intended to control the possibility of "going infinite" (or at least far enough to guarantee a win). ArkiThe7th - As Magic has evolved I've come to feel less explosive and more expensive cards are a great place to test weird or difficult concepts in advance. Take color-bending, for example - we don't see much Capricious Efreet in formats outside of Commander for example because it's expensive and slow, but I find it a more welcome way to introduce enchantment destruction in Red to help EDH players needing another budget method to do so. Or Battle of Wits, which is fairly popular even now and probably indirectly inspired Yorion, Sky Nomad. Alternatively, the reverse is also fairly interesting to observe with a card like Dark Confidant, which tends to set the upper limit for how good cards referencing it can be. We've had everything from Asylum Visitor to Dark Tutelage to Twilight Prophet, to more recently Keen Duelist, with the last one pushing particularly close but still not quite as straightforwardly good as the raw card advantage Bob provides. I imagine Uro will set a similar upper limit on cards like these in the future as "below Hogaak" turns out to be incredibly high power ceiling (at least, until WoTC forgets the power of casting good value from the graveyard again).
|
|
|
Post by Daij_Djan on Apr 11, 2021 15:13:18 GMT
To be honest, I haven't heard much about the accusations, but I don't really get them. The stereotype is supposed to be the "smart Asian guy" right? If so, then why use Silverquill when Witherbloom is considered being the Simic equivalent and Quandrix literally is the math college - wouldn't both fit the stereotype much better if one really wanted to push it? Unless I'm missing something here (which to be fair is totally possible! if so, feel free to correct me ), I just don't see it.
Concerning the new topic: I like cards with downsides! While I get why WotC doesn't keyword them anymore, I think not everything has to be all-upside all the time. Also I especially like cards with downsides like Rotting Regisaur, where the downside could even be turned into an upside instead!
|
|
|
Post by sdfkjgh on Apr 11, 2021 19:49:05 GMT
|
|
|
Post by Daij_Djan on Apr 11, 2021 20:54:34 GMT
@ sdfkjgh: Thanks for clarifying, so I indeed got it slightly wrong. Even though I'm now slightly amused by the article you linked not calling it a racist stereotype but rather explaining how it's a real thing based on Asian / Chinease education philosophy since good old Confucius.. (funny how pointing out historical / cultural differences is nowadays considered racist by some)
EDIT: Ok, now looked at the Twitter stuff talking about the Military School part - and now I feel like I'm pretty much completely lost (really not knowledable about that trope at all).. I guess I should just shut up and accept I don't have/get the full context.. Feel free to ignore my ramblings
|
|
|
Post by ZephyrPhantom on Apr 11, 2021 22:04:36 GMT
I'd like to add to my question to get a bit more mileage out of it and bring the focus back to gameplay-based questions. Do you guys have any "just not good enough" payoff cards you've made work to tried to make work recently?
|
|
|
Post by dangerousdice on Apr 12, 2021 1:01:35 GMT
I think that interesting downsides have a lot of usable design space! in particular, rotting regisaur is a really cool design.
|
|
foureyesisafish
7/7 Elemental
Posts: 386
Favorite Set: Ikoria: Lair of the Behemoths
Color Alignment: Blue, Red, Green
|
Post by foureyesisafish on Apr 12, 2021 11:55:50 GMT
I feel like the Silverquill situation was at least mostly an accident. I feel like some of the points brought up are wonky and that there are other explanations for why Embrose has these traits (Silverquill seems to be very competitive, and Embrose seems to lean into the military side at least a bit), but I do admit that the final product is definitely suspect. Of course, there could be some worldbuilding and character explanations for this as well (Embrose did lose his wife, after all. Maybe it's some sort of coping mechanism?)
|
|
|
Post by sdfkjgh on Apr 12, 2021 19:14:44 GMT
Take it, Mel.
As an advocate for design balance, I'm all for drawbacks on obviously powerful cards, especially drawbacks that can't be avoided. As has been proven time and again, a high mana cost isn't a drawback, it's an enticement to find other avenues of casting it/getting it on the battlefield. Omniscience (which really should've been named Omnipotence, because it makes you all-powerful, not all-knowing) is utterly broken, no matter what mana cost you give it, because nobody's ever paying retail for it.
An excellent comparison would be Pyromancer's Swath vs. Torbran, Thane of Red Fell. The Swath rightly has a drawback that pushes you into an interesting play pattern, one that you might not normally take. Torbran is just always on, for ALL red sources, and that's just lazy, boring design that breaks things.
R&D used to be better shepherds of design than this. True, their conservative timidity was a little too sensitively high-tuned at times, but the game never broke when the brakes were on. MaRo has even discussed a few times how the job of a game designer isn't to give the player everything they want right away, but to make things difficult for the player to get what they want (for those of you interested, look for his discussions on lamps).
Also, you look at a card like Mirror March, and the decks that run it, and almost none of them are looking to cheat Mirror March out (beyond just regular ramp) in the same way as Omnipotence. It's like the players who run it are subconsciously acknowledging the fun, goofy nature of the card, and as a result, they're not letting their Spikes take over to try and get it out turns 0-4.
Anything else?
No, I'm done
Alright.
Our next question comes from ArkiThe7th: Seeing as we’re getting another one this year, what regularity should new Horizons sets be released?
|
|
|
Post by ZephyrPhantom on Apr 12, 2021 19:37:00 GMT
|
|
|
Post by sdfkjgh on Apr 12, 2021 19:42:35 GMT
ZephyrPhantom : Thank you, I've been shirking off my duties as host. Sorry.
Also, Daij_Djan, it's not so much racist as problematic, and for two key reasons:
1) It's a stereotype, and as such, can be seen as hurtful to the group being stereotyped, due to all the cultural history of that group and the stereotype being used to inadequately represent them;
2) It's an Earth-based stereotype, for some characters who outwardly present of Asian descent, on a non-Earth setting. The creative team could've kept the tiger parent trope, and not have the characters outwardly present as Asian; or kept the Asian-coded characters, and ditched the stereotypical trope for that group, but to have them both together is both hurtful and lazy writing/creative. This is another world, free from the baggage of Earth, do something other than what you'd find here!
|
|
foureyesisafish
7/7 Elemental
Posts: 386
Favorite Set: Ikoria: Lair of the Behemoths
Color Alignment: Blue, Red, Green
|
Post by foureyesisafish on Apr 13, 2021 11:48:32 GMT
Does Abomination of Llanowar count? I did try and make a deck for it, but I can't find it anywhere...
|
|
|
Post by ZephyrPhantom on Apr 13, 2021 23:46:40 GMT
Does Abomination of Llanowar count? I did try and make a deck for it, but I can't find it anywhere... I'd say it counts. I've always wanted to make Hakim, Loreweaver work in something personally but never found a good spot for it.
|
|
ArkiThe7th
1/1 Squirrel
Any plant is edible if you’re not a coward.
Posts: 82
Favorite Card: Wee Dragonauts
Favorite Set: Pauper Masters (wait a second...)
Color Alignment: Blue, Red
|
Post by ArkiThe7th on Apr 15, 2021 12:50:30 GMT
I didn’t want to be the first to address my own questions, but it seems pretty quiet, so I’ll go.
I think that in general, sets designed specifically for certain formats should only be released very infrequently. Maybe once every 2 or 3 years. Any quicker than that and the format can suffer. When you make cards specifically for a single format, it of course has a high chance to break it (look at Hogaak), but you also take away some player agency. Finding cards that fit especially well in your favorite format can be a lot of fun. Just handing those cards to your players feels a little too easy.
On the positive side, these kinds of sets can be lots of fun to draft. They’re generally more powerful and have really interesting themes. I loved drafting Commander Legends, it was tons of fun. So, I think Horizons sets are fun and healthy in limited, but start to get a little dubious in constructed.
|
|
foureyesisafish
7/7 Elemental
Posts: 386
Favorite Set: Ikoria: Lair of the Behemoths
Color Alignment: Blue, Red, Green
|
Post by foureyesisafish on Apr 15, 2021 15:58:25 GMT
I actually think these constructed-only sets are cool. Note this isn't just for modern, but for pretty much every eternal format.
|
|
|
Post by ZephyrPhantom on Apr 15, 2021 19:55:44 GMT
I think eternal format sets (as a whole) are great because it allows WoTC to print more pushed or unusual stuff that probably couldn't pass in a Standard set. Wheel of Misfortune comes to mind as a more recent positive example, being a RL-friendly take on Wheel of Fortune that can see use in Commander, Legacy, and Vintage. While I agree that we shouldn't see them as often (because it risks turning formats that are known for less frequent or dramatic change into Standard), I think that that can easily be dealt with by changing the 'targeted format' each year - there's always be a demand for Commander decks, draft-focused sets with a theme lke like Conspiracy and Unstable were quite popular, and by adding Modern Horizons to the list you have an easy three-year rotation right there - four years if you count releasing another supplemental set with an entirely new gimmick like Jumpstart.
|
|
ArkiThe7th
1/1 Squirrel
Any plant is edible if you’re not a coward.
Posts: 82
Favorite Card: Wee Dragonauts
Favorite Set: Pauper Masters (wait a second...)
Color Alignment: Blue, Red
|
Post by ArkiThe7th on Apr 16, 2021 13:06:50 GMT
That’s probably a good idea. Making sure to swap formats every year would work well. I just don’t see that being very likely. It seems like a lot of their recent design decisions have been focused around commander specifically. It’s understandable, commander is one of the most popular formats. I worry though, I worry that designing specific pally for commander will take away some of the specialness of it. It could also easily break up a more generally more casual feel to the format.
|
|
|
Post by ZephyrPhantom on Apr 16, 2021 18:02:35 GMT
Yeah, WoTC's focus for Commander affects the game in both subtle and unsubtle ways. There was an EDHRec podcast episode a while back that talked about how cards like Korvold, Fae-Cursed King and Chulane, Teller of Tales are more self-enabling goodstuff engines that present a clear and focused strategy compared to older legends like Mayael, The Anima and Kresh the Bloodbraided where the card wasn't as self-enabling or had less of the 'engine' on it. It definitely feels like the more frequently WoTC has to focus on printing cards for a set, the more often they'll feel compelled to print flashy cards that play well. This is less of an issue in formats like Standard where harsh answers to those things like resetting power (and now Yugioh-style constant bans, apparently) are common but for Commander I imagine we'll see a lot more of these less-noticeable subtly pushed Commanders keep appearing in the near future.
|
|
ArkiThe7th
1/1 Squirrel
Any plant is edible if you’re not a coward.
Posts: 82
Favorite Card: Wee Dragonauts
Favorite Set: Pauper Masters (wait a second...)
Color Alignment: Blue, Red
|
Post by ArkiThe7th on Apr 19, 2021 13:13:43 GMT
Yeah, I totally agree. Making more pushed commanders may be good for business, but I worry about the game’s own wellbeing.
Anybody else have other thoughts? If not, we can probably move on to the next question.
|
|