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Post by sdfkjgh on Apr 19, 2021 18:28:09 GMT
ArkiThe7th: I figure a host needs to be a good shepherd. So, since I'm a fair-to-middling shepherd at best, I'm waiting for Daij_Djan to chime in, before I give my thoughts, and then we can move on. It's what I've been doing for every question, in case you hadn't noticed.
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ArkiThe7th
1/1 Squirrel
Any plant is edible if you’re not a coward.
Posts: 82
Favorite Card: Wee Dragonauts
Favorite Set: Pauper Masters (wait a second...)
Color Alignment: Blue, Red
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Post by ArkiThe7th on Apr 19, 2021 21:57:33 GMT
I understood that. I just didn’t know if we were waiting for Daij_Djan or not. Thanks for clearing that up.
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Post by Daij_Djan on Apr 19, 2021 22:08:31 GMT
Sorry everyone for being rather absent last week – as my fellow panel members already know I had some migrane issues. So I'll try to catch up as good as possible.. It's also further proof that nobody cares about Fork and Twincast anymore, like Evan Erwin has been saying for the past few years. Completely forgot agreeing with you here last time. Especially we now have Teach by Example. At common. Also to add one more note to Strixhaven: I mentioned previously MaRo's „Strixhaven Design“ podcasts. I've now listened to episode two as well – and according to him Magecraft was originally called Spellcraft. That's just awesome I'd like to add to my question to get a bit more mileage out of it and bring the focus back to gameplay-based questions. Do you guys have any "just not good enough" payoff cards you've made work to tried to make work recently? I've really not done much brewing recently, though I hope to be able to change this in the near future. Our Playtesting Group might be a nice starting point I know I definitely want to try and make Ruxa, Patient Professor work as a commander, btw Our next question comes from ArkiThe7th : Seeing as we’re getting another one this year, what regularity should new Horizons sets be released? Concerning our current question, I don't think I have much to add that hasn't been said though. I like the concept of Horizon sets, offering some new and interesting designs alongside of much needed reprints sounds nice on paper (also while I cannot judge it on my own, I have also heard many good things about these sets' Limited environments) – even though I definitely see the possible issues especially in the Commander format. I still remember when wacky mana value 9+ cards would get spoiled and someone said „I'll make this work in EDH“ instantly – whereas in recent years mostly because of WotC focussing som much on the format, decks tend to be much more streamlined, curves get lower and lower and the format faster and faster (even ignoring CEDH).. Many recent commanders feel much more streamlined and/or like generic value powerhouses (looking at several Simic designs in particular) – but then again, they do end up designing really fascinating ones as well still.. It's tough – but I think I really would like the concept of changing focus on a specific format on a yearly basis quite much as well. Not sure whether I'd be thrilled or scared of them ever doing Pauper Horizons though – but then again, they never will do so anyway
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Post by sdfkjgh on Apr 20, 2021 23:11:31 GMT
Ok, here goes:
It seems like we're all in agreement on this subject: eager for what's new, but wary of what could (and most likely will) break a few formats. I'd just like to add that WotC is very much like Leviathan or the Eye of Sauron when it comes to designing for popular/fanmade formats: when their terrible gaze is upon you, woe, misery, and destruction betide.
These formats are (or rather, were) all about discovery, exploration, and self-expression. Because cards weren't specifically designed for them, it was up to the players to find the hidden gems that would best optimize their decks. But designing specifically for these formats removes that facet, which almost seems to erase the very reason for the format's existence.
Ever since Chris Cox joined, things have been going to shit. This isn't to say that it's all his fault (correlation does not denote causation, and all that), but the correlation IS there.
I'd say that until they hire more people to actually stress-test each new card in each format, they should err on the side of caution, and only release Horizons sets every other year. Of course, they're never gonna do any of that, because capitalism, y'all, but the safety of the game is at stake if they don't.
Anyway, let's move on to our next question, from dangerousdice:
What is the panel's opinion on black-bordered Squirrels, and (optional) what is a Squirrel design you'd like them to print?
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Post by dangerousdice on Apr 20, 2021 23:25:13 GMT
I love them! squirrel's have a lot of untapped design potential!
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Post by ZephyrPhantom on Apr 21, 2021 0:59:00 GMT
I guess they're alright. It's cool we're getting things like Toski, Bearer of Secrets (which has actual roots in Norse Mythology i believe) and more random things like Scurrid Colony, but I feel like these random value cards doesn't really represent what they can do very well. Deep Forest Hermit, Deranged Hermit, Squirrel Wrangler, Squirrel Nest Acorn Harvest, Chatter of the Squirrel, and various other card suggest Squirrels could be a great go-wide tokens archetype if we had any of these cards reprinted in Standard. I'd like to pitch a thought experiment to the panel based on this question: What is the minimum number of reprint cards you feel Standard would need to have a viable Squirrel 'tribal' deck? (Note: This means infinite combos like Squirrel's Nest + Earthcraft don't count) I'll spoiler my answer to avoid any preemptive bias. I believe you'd need at least 3 cards: 1) One of Deep Forest Hermit or Deranged Hermit (serves as a Lord to buff the go-wide strats, can be ramped into, and ssent to the graveyard on purpose to be reused later) 2) One of Chatter of the Squirrel or Acorn Harvest, as a cheap token making sorcery that plays up the graveyard elements and giving you something to do earlier in the turn. 3) Squirrel Mob, which is a relatively efficient payoff that doesn't compete with the mana slots of the other cards.
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ArkiThe7th
1/1 Squirrel
Any plant is edible if you’re not a coward.
Posts: 82
Favorite Card: Wee Dragonauts
Favorite Set: Pauper Masters (wait a second...)
Color Alignment: Blue, Red
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Post by ArkiThe7th on Apr 21, 2021 2:26:32 GMT
I like squirrels. They let magic get in touch with their silly side a little bit. (Think, the whole 15 flying squirrels can take on Emrakul thing.) Squirrels also function as a good small vanilla token that green can make. Saprolings can also fill that role, but squirrels are just more fun. Squirrels also make a good tribe for commander players to build around; they’re fairly niche, they’re kinda silly, but are still relatively viable. However, I don’t support a saturation of squirrels. We love squirrels right now because we only get them every so often and they’re always really cool. If too many squirrels are printed, they become less special, losing all of their intrigue. That’s a bad idea. The inconsistency and ridiculousness of squirrels is fantastic. If we start getting 2 or 3 of them every set, they’re gonna lose that. I’m more lenient for silver-bordered magic because squirrels fit the theme of Un-Sets better and we already have a lot of silver bordered squirrels. As for ZephyrPhantom’s question, I don’t have a great idea. We probably would just need Deranged Hermit and Squirrel Wrangler. P.S. Squirrel fact: Squirrels can basically survive from a fall of any height because they can reduce their terminal velocity to such a low speed. They basically function as their own parachute, and we should get a gliding squirrel card in magic because of this.
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Post by sdfkjgh on Apr 21, 2021 18:25:27 GMT
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ArkiThe7th
1/1 Squirrel
Any plant is edible if you’re not a coward.
Posts: 82
Favorite Card: Wee Dragonauts
Favorite Set: Pauper Masters (wait a second...)
Color Alignment: Blue, Red
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Post by ArkiThe7th on Apr 21, 2021 22:10:33 GMT
I forgot about that card. But I want something that glides, not flies. Like an activated ability that gives flying, or it only has flying if you have enough forests. Something conditional to show that it’s not exactly just flying.
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foureyesisafish
7/7 Elemental
Posts: 386
Favorite Set: Ikoria: Lair of the Behemoths
Color Alignment: Blue, Red, Green
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Post by foureyesisafish on Apr 23, 2021 16:46:03 GMT
I forgot about that card. But I want something that glides, not flies. Like an activated ability that gives flying, or it only has flying if you have enough forests. Something conditional to show that it’s not exactly just flying. given, Helica Glider does do that, entering the battlefield with flying or first strike.
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Post by sdfkjgh on Apr 23, 2021 16:58:59 GMT
Daij_Djan, do you have any thoughts on the question?
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Post by Daij_Djan on Apr 23, 2021 22:36:01 GMT
Daij_Djan , do you have any thoughts on the question? I have – and I actually already typed them out yesterday, but apparently forgot hitting the „send“ button afterwards.. Basically, I 100% agree with ArkiThe7th 's comment above. Also like Squirrels quite much, they feel like green's version of red's „wacky goblins“ - yet I also think WotC shouldn't start overusing them either. The hype was real when the first black-colored Squirrel finally saw print after all those years.. But if they came the new elves, they'd quickly use their uniquness.. I’m more lenient for silver-bordered magic because squirrels fit the theme of Un-Sets better and we already have a lot of silver bordered squirrels. That's probably the only part I'm not 100% on board with – I like squirrels in both border colors equally. Then again, since Un-Sets only show up so infrequently, they naturally helped keeping squirrels a rare thing, I guess I forgot about that card. But I want something that glides, not flies. Like an activated ability that gives flying, or it only has flying if you have enough forests. Something conditional to show that it’s not exactly just flying. Well, there is this very old design approach to creatures swinging from one tree to another.. I'd like to pitch a thought experiment to the panel based on this question: What is the minimum number of reprint cards you feel Standard would need to have a viable Squirrel 'tribal' deck? (Note: This means infinite combos like Squirrel's Nest + Earthcraft don't count) I'll spoiler my answer to avoid any preemptive bias. Interesting question. While I again don't think squirrels should become the new norm, making them „a thing“ for once would indeed be funny. Depending on the curve and/or the rest if the deck, I guess you'd need three to four cards to make it feel like a real tribal deck..
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Post by sdfkjgh on Apr 24, 2021 19:25:08 GMT
I love Squirrels, both in-game and out, and some of my first Magic purchases were from Odyssey, with Krosan Beast being one of the rares. So you can imagine what my first attempt at deckbuilding, and some of my first homebrew designs, would be about. That decklist was atrocious, with 4 Spidersilk Armor and 4 Beast of Burden because I didn't understand how deckbuilding works.
Ral: Oh please, you barely understand it now. And you're still make the same overstuffing mistakes you made back then.
Quiet you. Anyway, while I do agree with ArkiThe7th's worry about limiting their saturation in order to keep them special, I don't think we're anywhere near that amount. Look at the Fish deck archetype. Absolutely no one is saying "Oh god, ANOTHER fucking Merfolk!", so if Sciuridae becomes a viable deck archetype, I'd be happy. Plus, Wizards has said that Saprolings will never be represented on a creature card, strictly tokens only (a decision that I'm not entirely sure I agree with), and Squirrels have no such restrictions.
As to ZephyrPhantom's thought experiment, I'd say you'd need at least 3-5 cards in at least one set (i.e. enough to make a noticeable subtheme of that set).
As a bonus story for those who don't know, I would like to direct your attention to Waiting in the Weeds. This was the first Squirrel card that MaRo ever designed. "But it says 'Cat'!" I know. Back when the departments weren't talking to each other--
Ral: Way I hear it, they still aren't.
SHUTUP! Back when they really weren't talking to each other, the illustrator (who I think was also the art director at the time) just chose to put a bunch of cats in the art. MaRo complained to her that they were supposed to be Squirrels, and she said that nobody told her. Because of that initial nut-blocking, MaRo was obsessed with getting Squirrels into Magic. Imagine if he'd gotten his way right out of the gate...
Incidentally, I once designed a suspend version of Waiting in the Weeds that produce Squirrels instead of Cats. I can't remember when, but it's in my backlog somewhere. So I guess that's a design I'd like to see print. Also, one of my first few homebrews was made around the time Conker's Bad Fur Day came out for the N64, so I was playing that heavily, and it inspired this design:
Squirrel Shotgunner Creature--Squirrel Rogue , : Flip a coin. If it comes up heads, ~ deals X damage to any target. If it comes up tails, ~ deals 1 damage to each of X targets. 1/2
Yes, it's not very good (about on par with creatures of that time), and the reference to shotguns is a no-no, but it has tons of nostalgia for me, so mebbe something can be done with that activated ability.
Our next question is again from ZephyrPhantom: How would you feel if Lightning Bolt became Standard legal again?
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Post by Daij_Djan on Apr 25, 2021 23:26:06 GMT
, : Flip a coin. If it comes up heads, ~ deals X damage to any target. If it comes up tails, ~ deals 1 damage to each of X targets. I'm pretty sure this ability has some timing issues, as you don't know how many targets it'll have as you activate the ability.. Oddly enough, MaRo's most recent podcast episode was all about people giving him two options and him pondering about which one would be the most likely one. One of those assessment was which card would be returning to Standard more likely: Counterspell or Lightning Bolt. MaRo answered both being rather unlikely as they'd warp the format around them too much – but given he was supposed to chose anyway, he decided Lightning Bolt would be the safer choice.. So Lightning Bolt in one of the upcoming Innistrad sets confirmed!!!!!! To be honest I don't really care about the Standard format to really answer this question properly, though. I'd love to get Lightning Bolt into Historic however – replacing my Shocks in my 14-Land-CMC1 deck would be pretty cool (Also to be honest I don't really get why they banned the Mystical Archive one considering so much other format warping stuff that's still allowed continues running rampant..)
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ArkiThe7th
1/1 Squirrel
Any plant is edible if you’re not a coward.
Posts: 82
Favorite Card: Wee Dragonauts
Favorite Set: Pauper Masters (wait a second...)
Color Alignment: Blue, Red
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Post by ArkiThe7th on Apr 27, 2021 7:21:23 GMT
While I don’t think Lightning Bolt appearing in standard would be healthy, I don’t think it would break the format either. Standard always has some red burn spell that most decks run. Lightning Bolt would probably fall into that slot. Since Lightning Bolt is just a basic burn spell (as basic as it gets), I doubt it would really warp the format around it. A simple cheap removal spell wouldn’t be the end of the world.
However, it would set a precedent for more powerful removal in the future. Reprinting Lightning Bolt could lead to a downward spiral towards stronger and stronger removal, which is definitely unhealthy for standard.
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Post by sdfkjgh on Apr 28, 2021 18:25:19 GMT
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Post by dangerousdice on Apr 28, 2021 18:57:32 GMT
honestly, I dont play standard at all, so maybe im not the right person to ask, but a simple burn spell doesnt seem that bad?
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Post by ZephyrPhantom on Apr 29, 2021 18:57:27 GMT
Going to spoiler my reaction in case fish would like to answer blind: {Spoiler}So the reason I asked this question is because Lightning Bolt, despite its critically acclaimed reprint in 2011 and 2012, is actually considered to be format warping by WoTC as stated by Mark Rosewater as recently as 2018. I figured it would be an interesting question to bring up because this means that despite the increasing power of creatures over the past 8-10 years and said increase being thrown into high gear in 2016, Lightning Bolt is seen still too strong... ...but it seems like WoTC is slowly working its way there again anyway. While there are periods of standard where the best burn-based removal is usually some variant of Searing Spear, we received Wizard's Lightning in Dominara, Skewer the Critics in Ravnica Allegiance, and most recently Frost Bite in Kaldhiem. Perhaps WoTC is also realizing that removal can't be always gimped if they're pushing their creatures constantly so. I do agree with ArkiThe7th that much like how Baneslayer became the new ceiling (that was eventually broken), too frequent prints of Bolt would result in people getting too used to it as the floor and WoTC would be more willing to inevitably break that gold standard - I just find it interesting how "almost Bolts" have made a comeback in recent years. To be honest, I'd still love to see if WoTC would willingly print "Lightning Bolt but it's sorcery speed only", or perhaps even Chain Lightning, but I imagine the former is too close to the ceiling and the latter would probably be deemed too unfun/color specific or some other sensible reason unless it was a rare or something like that.
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Post by sdfkjgh on May 2, 2021 2:02:56 GMT
[user=foureyesisafish]Meganekko Abe Vigota[/user]EDIT: Dangit, I was hoping that'd work. foureyesisafish, we're still waiting on your thoughts.
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foureyesisafish
7/7 Elemental
Posts: 386
Favorite Set: Ikoria: Lair of the Behemoths
Color Alignment: Blue, Red, Green
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Post by foureyesisafish on May 3, 2021 11:57:31 GMT
I feel like I would be fine with lightning bolt coming back. Depends in the context, but I think in the right standard (large creatures being common, protection abilities being common, etc.) , lightning bolt may not actually be that broken.
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Post by sdfkjgh on May 3, 2021 21:09:28 GMT
It seems ZephyrPhantom gave a pretty decent breakdown of everyone's concerns and arguments, and I agree with them all, for the most part, but I wonder if WotC would ever print something like this in Standard:
Thunderblast Instant Thunderblast deals 3 damage to target creature or planeswalker. ----------------------------- “Ow, my freakin’ ears!”
More and more, with the pedal-to-the-metal pushing of power levels, and the older gatekeepers of the game's power levels of the past, Lightning Bolt is looking like another Serra Angel, where someone from way outside the company needs to tell them that not only is the card in question not too powerful, for the majority of cases, it's not even powerful enough to make it into decks. This is not to say that I'm advocating for a further descent into the arms race downward spiral of ascending power levels--
Teferi: Boy, do you love mangling your metaphors.
Yank you, and yes I do.
Instead, I'm hoping it causes R&D to drastically reevaluate their current Tim Taylor design philosophy.
Ral: You just keep dreaming, Butch; that's what you're good at.
I will say that the day they reprint Counterspell in Standard is the day they admit both defeat, and that they never liked any of the other colors or archetypes, and only ever want Control to be viable. Since they're not the republican partyas openly blatant about their biases and hatreds yet, I don't Foresee this happening in my lifetime.
And finally, Which Pro Player do you hope will win the upcoming all-Rosewatta Stone Pro Tour (or whatever they call it nowadays)?
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Post by ZephyrPhantom on May 3, 2021 21:31:08 GMT
Unfortunately I don't follow Pro Tour stuff very closely so I don't have much to say for this question.
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Post by Daij_Djan on May 3, 2021 21:46:17 GMT
Just for the record: Since you originally proposed the question, MaRo (in the podcast episode I mentioned above) has confirmed this still being WotC's point of view on Lightning Bolt even today. And finally, Which Pro Player do you hope will win the upcoming all-Rosewatta Stone Pro Tour (or whatever they call it nowadays)?Considering I care even less for the pro scene than most formats, I'm not even slightly able to answer this question, sorry. Have to say, that Twitter link reminded me of this – and therefore made me laugh
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Post by dangerousdice on May 3, 2021 23:08:34 GMT
can i just say that I dont really follow tournaments at all, so...
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ArkiThe7th
1/1 Squirrel
Any plant is edible if you’re not a coward.
Posts: 82
Favorite Card: Wee Dragonauts
Favorite Set: Pauper Masters (wait a second...)
Color Alignment: Blue, Red
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Post by ArkiThe7th on May 4, 2021 10:59:59 GMT
If it’s the Rosewatta Stone event, I believe Pierre-François Bouchard would be best suited, as he was the discoverer of the namesake of Rosewatta Stone. The undecipherable part wouldn’t mess him up, since he doesn’t understand English. He would be too powerful!
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Post by sdfkjgh on May 4, 2021 23:04:39 GMT
If it’s the Rosewatta Stone event, I believe Pierre-François Bouchard would be best suited, as he was the discoverer of the namesake of Rosewatta Stone. The undecipherable part wouldn’t mess him up, since he doesn’t understand English. He would be too powerful! This is how you do it!
So what deck do you think he'll be running? Money Wars? Klaatu Barada Nikto? Or mebbe the dreaded Horshers tribal?
Teferi: Man, Horshers tribal never really recovered from that Companion Cage ban, you know that!
AS GODRICHARD GARFIELD AS MY WITNESS, LIKE UNTO BRAD NELSON AND TRADING POST, I WILL RUN HORSHERS TRIBAL BEYOND ALL HOPE OF VIABILITY, OR DIE TRYING TO TURN IT INTO THE MEMDECK THAT JUST WON'T DIE!!!
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Post by dangerousdice on May 4, 2021 23:16:33 GMT
If it’s the Rosewatta Stone event, I believe Pierre-François Bouchard would be best suited, as he was the discoverer of the namesake of Rosewatta Stone. The undecipherable part wouldn’t mess him up, since he doesn’t understand English. He would be too powerful! This is how you do it!
So what deck do you think he'll be running? Money Wars? Klaatu Barada Nikto? Or mebbe the dreaded Horshers tribal?
Teferi: Man, Horshers tribal never really recovered from that Companion Cage ban, you know that!
AS GODRICHARD GARFIELD AS MY WITNESS, LIKE UNTO BRAD NELSON AND TRADING POST, I WILL RUN HORSHERS TRIBAL BEYOND ALL HOPE OF VIABILITY, OR DIE TRYING TO TURN IT INTO THE MEMDECK THAT JUST WON'T DIE!!!
honestly, I prefer jellytax strategies. much more interactive. honestly though? he'll probably just go with manic murder deck. sad.
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ArkiThe7th
1/1 Squirrel
Any plant is edible if you’re not a coward.
Posts: 82
Favorite Card: Wee Dragonauts
Favorite Set: Pauper Masters (wait a second...)
Color Alignment: Blue, Red
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Post by ArkiThe7th on May 5, 2021 0:04:07 GMT
If it’s the Rosewatta Stone event, I believe Pierre-François Bouchard would be best suited, as he was the discoverer of the namesake of Rosewatta Stone. The undecipherable part wouldn’t mess him up, since he doesn’t understand English. He would be too powerful! This is how you do it!
So what deck do you think he'll be running? Money Wars? Klaatu Barada Nikto? Or mebbe the dreaded Horshers tribal?
Teferi: Man, Horshers tribal never really recovered from that Companion Cage ban, you know that!
AS GODRICHARD GARFIELD AS MY WITNESS, LIKE UNTO BRAD NELSON AND TRADING POST, I WILL RUN HORSHERS TRIBAL BEYOND ALL HOPE OF VIABILITY, OR DIE TRYING TO TURN IT INTO THE MEMDECK THAT JUST WON'T DIE!!!
I don’t know about Horshers... Casting creatures into your graveyard can be pretty hard to pull off. And the payoff could be a little stronger. Not to mention having to worry about what color your opponent is playing. I’d much rather see Bouchard play a big rock. It gives you such a wealth of information! Isn’t that what really matters? Also, it’s simply just a piece of art.
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Post by sdfkjgh on May 6, 2021 2:20:57 GMT
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foureyesisafish
7/7 Elemental
Posts: 386
Favorite Set: Ikoria: Lair of the Behemoths
Color Alignment: Blue, Red, Green
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Post by foureyesisafish on May 6, 2021 11:18:28 GMT
nope, not really
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