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Post by sdfkjgh on Sept 24, 2021 1:29:07 GMT
Kels, Fight Fixer: Beginning in 5
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3, cue theme music
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Jesus christ, you fucking bitch, what the godawful fuck are you inflicting on us?
Kels: Oh, like you don't know, Mr. watches UltraViolence's ClusterFuck videos religiously? A certain Nemesis Suicide Bomber would like to have a word with you...
Please stop crossing the streams, please stop giving out personal details of my life, and please just let us go!
Kels: Oh, no. I'm actually starting to enjoy watching you lot struggle through this show. So, on with it, I've got popcorn, and everything!
God, I wish we were out of this dungeon.
Welcome, once again, to The MageLaughlin Group. I'm your host, sdfkjgh , and with me is my esteemed panel, Daij_Djan , ZephyrPhantom , foureyesisafish , ArkiThe7th , & dangerousdice (presumed deceased), but you wouldn't know anything about that, would you?
Kels: DON'T ADDRESS THE CAMERA WHILE IT'S ROLLING!
But, this is a text-based medium--
Kels: DON'T ADDRESS THE CAMERA!!!
As you can see, we're still trapped in Kels' dungeon, for the unforgivable crime of spending a single episode in her Luxury Suite, after accidentally planeswalking through some of the worst places in the Multiverse. So, par for the course for us. Kels managed to outfit each of our cells with their own miniaturized version of The Immortal Sun, so there's no getting out of this for the time being.
Kels: QUIT WASTING TIME ON RECAPS!
Fine. Our First Question comes from ArkiThe7th : What’s everyone’s thoughts on Magic Overload? Is it too much, or do you feel like the more magic the merrier? |
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Post by Daij_Djan on Sept 24, 2021 23:37:46 GMT
Hi everyone, nice to be back - even though I had hoped we would manage to get out of these cells in time.. Then again, I did get rather fond of this drink, to be honest..
Sadly, I don't really have the time to answer in earnest today - and as I won't probably be able to do so untill tomorrow evening or even the day after, I wanted to at least post a quick video I wanted to include in my answer anyway..
So while I'll definitely add some written text to my reply later, for now feel free to check out the first three minutes of this video (which basically contains the Professor's take on the topic):
(Everything after the three minute mark is also interesting on its own as usual, but doesn't have anythzing to do with our given topic.)
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ArkiThe7th
1/1 Squirrel
Any plant is edible if you’re not a coward.
Posts: 82
Favorite Card: Wee Dragonauts
Favorite Set: Pauper Masters (wait a second...)
Color Alignment: Blue, Red
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Post by ArkiThe7th on Sept 26, 2021 10:26:30 GMT
(I have a lot of thoughts on this question, but I’ll wait till some other people give their thoughts since it was my question.)
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Post by Daij_Djan on Sept 27, 2021 18:33:47 GMT
OK, here's my take on the matter. Honestly I don't think I have anything new to add to this topic – everything I think about it has already been said by someone else in the past, and probably better phrased  For me, Magic Overload definitely is a thing. To clarify: This isn't about spending money or FOMO. In the past, I always bought a few boosters when a new set came out and afterwards settled on buying individual cards. Since the panemic, I'm working from home which is why I haven't been at my LGS in a pretty long time (since that one is located literally one street away from my normal workplace) – so I haven't bought a single booster in quite some time and wouldn't have done so no matter what. Still, I always liked to keep up with new Magic sets. I always enjoyed spoiler seasons, thinking about new cards and hearing other peoples' thoughts about them I always watched Nizzahon's Limited reviews even though I never played the format just to make sure I'd see all the new cards, get excited about them – and to some degree to always keep up with the game simply from a designer standpoint, of course. But nowadays, we're besically constantly during a spoiler season. I dropped the set reviews since I couldn't keep up with them anymore and also since it started feeling like a slog to go through them constantly. When I look at the chart for next years' sets, it already feels so cramped, it really drags my mood down. Which is kind of a shame, because I really like the ideas behind every single one of these sets. A return to Kamigawa? A demon mobster world? Hell yeah! To bad we won't take any time to focus on those worlds, get to know and enjoy them. This is another thing: I'm sure the flavor department is building amazing worlds as usual, but where's the time to let all that flavor sink in? We rush from set to set, plane to plane (small sidenote: I liked having more than one set per plane), and everything starts just blending together.. I might have some additional things to add, but I think that's all I have to say for now. |
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Post by ZephyrPhantom on Sept 27, 2021 18:51:22 GMT
While I think a lot of the concerns people have generally expressed are valid*, I feel like I come from a bit of a different place here as someone who doesn't generally get a lot of time to play Magic. I usually end up boiling down cards/sets to the following questions: 1) Is it legal in <format>? 2) Are we considering competitive play? 3) Are we drafting? 4) Do I want to try putting it in a deck? I feel like it's kind of a naive endeavor for me personally to perfectly keep up with the cards at all (even before WoTC went all-in on promotional products), so I feel adopting a 'broad strokes' approach helps quickly filter out what I'd care for vs. what I don't. I can't really waste time on every Mudhole but Moonrager's Slash on the other hand would get my attention. *Specifically, I think Daij makes a good point that Magic analysis and following spoiler season is essentially a hobby all of its own, and 'set overload' makes it difficult to enjoy the activity due to too much content to follow. |
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ArkiThe7th
1/1 Squirrel
Any plant is edible if you’re not a coward.
Posts: 82
Favorite Card: Wee Dragonauts
Favorite Set: Pauper Masters (wait a second...)
Color Alignment: Blue, Red
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Post by ArkiThe7th on Sept 28, 2021 11:04:04 GMT
So Magic overload is something that I've been feeling for a while, but it's just now it's really sinking in. I used to go to every single prerelease, watch all the spoilers, and get hyped about the storyline. Now, I just feel really apathetic. I haven't been to a prerelease (digital or physical) for 7 or so sets now - that's not saying much considering how many sets they're making every year, but it's important to note. I honestly haven't actually played with physical new cards in close to a year. I was really hyped for Midnight Hunt, but when there weren't any game stores near me with prerelease events (Covid restrictions are still high in Korea), I wasn't disappointed, really. I'm assuming the constant stream of new sets are making Hasbro more money, but at what cost? And what about the long term? Eventually, people are gonna get tired of it and move to other TCGs. I also don't like how many products are coming out with each set. I definitely couldn't tell you what all the products coinciding with Midnight Hunt are, there's too many, and I don't have any reason to know since there'll be a new set of products in a month or two. I wonder how this is affecting the R&D, flavor, and story departments. The actual quality of the sets isn't really going down, and they're all still interesting planes and concepts, and that makes me worried. I have a hunch that R&D might be a little rushed and overworked, and I'm sure the extra money Hasbro's raking in isn't going to them. This all seems to lead back to corporate greed by Hasbro to add a couple extra zeroes to their MTG income. But nowadays, we're besically constantly during a spoiler season. I dropped the set reviews since I couldn't keep up with them anymore and also since it started feeling like a slog to go through them constantly. When I look at the chart for next years' sets, it already feels so cramped, it really drags my mood down. Which is kind of a shame, because I really like the ideas behind every single one of these sets. A return to Kamigawa? A demon mobster world? Hell yeah! To bad we won't take any time to focus on those worlds, get to know and enjoy them. This is another thing: I'm sure the flavor department is building amazing worlds as usual, but where's the time to let all that flavor sink in? We rush from set to set, plane to plane (small sidenote: I liked having more than one set per plane), and everything starts just blending together.. I couldn't agree more with this. Demon mobsters sound amazing, but I bet I won't really care if I miss the prerelease and never draft it. I also agree with the more than one set per plane note. I think two sets was the sweetspot, and three sets was good in some places (Ravnica). |
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Post by sdfkjgh on Sept 28, 2021 16:11:02 GMT
foureyesisafish, dangerousdice: Do you have anything to add? dangerousdice, I'm hereby putting you on notice. If we hear nothing from you this episode, I'm dropping you from the panel. I'm sorry that it has to come to this.
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Post by ZephyrPhantom on Sept 28, 2021 18:47:04 GMT
foureyesisafish, dangerousdice: Do you have anything to add? dangerousdice, I'm hereby putting you on notice. If we hear nothing from you this episode, I'm dropping you from the panel. I'm sorry that it has to come to this. Isn't my undead body allergic to fire or something? Well, with the right spray or two......I don't think I even want my body back at this rate. |
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foureyesisafish
7/7 Elemental
Posts: 388
Favorite Set: Ikoria: Lair of the Behemoths
Color Alignment: Blue, Red, Green
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Post by foureyesisafish on Sept 29, 2021 11:53:00 GMT
I’m not sure how to answer this question at this point, but I’m focusing my hype towards a couple of products in particular, so that’s helping.
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Post by sdfkjgh on Sept 29, 2021 18:53:47 GMT
So, I'ma tell you all a lil' story. You remember when my uncle died recently, right? Well, the last time before then that I had visited them, I'd managed to get my cousin interested in Magic, and he'd actually bought product, so I asked him if he wanted to play, or get my help with deckbuilding. The thing is, he'd bought Strixhaven, and wasn't even aware that we were currently in AFR hype. I could hear the slight disappointment in his voice, along with massive amounts of incredulity, that what he'd bought was so soon not the latest thing.
Mebbe it's the consequences of getting older, but the months don't feel as long as they used to, because in my youth, it sure felt more like 4 months in between each set, rather than 3.
Another problem with the overload and burnout is the Story Spotlight cards. Back before someone at Wizards decided to let all their old servers go kablooey because reasons, we had access to decades of old stories, articles, etc. Auriok Transfixer's flavor text seems especially relevant here. As contrast, take a look at this, and--
Teferi: You do know that they've never been very good at matching the story to the cards, right?
Kels: Who the hell are you, and how the hell did you get in here?!
Oh, holy shit, THAT'S HOW! Teffers, #7, if you please! *Kels pops out of existence*
Ral: Begone, thot! *Cackles maniacally* I always wanted to say that.
Great, now can you get us out of here, please?
Teferi: Sorry, not until you've finished the episode.
Oh, goddamnit. Fine! Where was I?
Teferi: We were discussing how the only time story was perfectly matched to cards was the Weatherlight Saga, and even then, there were quite a few inconsistencies.
Jesus. It'd be nice if they could hammer out the story beforehand, so we can get all the Story Spotlight cards as previews during spoiler season, but spoiler season and the Story Spotlight cards are so divorced from each other, that they both render the other and themselves irrelevant!
When was the last time we actually took the time to mull over the story?
Ral: Ixalan block.
Ah. It all makes a twisted sort of sense now. The behind-the-scenes hatred and jealousy towards Alison Luhrs remains strong, even to this day. It really sucks watching someone's legacy continually shat upon and destroyed just because they were better than everyone else.
Anyway, we barely spend any time on the story nowadays, yet I can remember a time, decades ago, when the story was what started the hype train for the new set, before spoiler season even began! When I get in, the spigot is gonna be turned down severely.
Also, designing specifically for Commander is killing all the other formats! Commander was fine back when WotC was still designing Standard for Standard, and Commander players were adapting whatever tickled their fancies for their own format. We--
Teferi: We should prolly save that for a different discussion.
Right.
Our next Question comes from me: What're your opinions on the old Werewolves vs Daybound/Nightbound Werewolves dichotomy, and Wizards' reluctance towards functional rules changes in general? |
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Post by ZephyrPhantom on Sept 29, 2021 21:53:03 GMT
Well, that was a pretty lightshow. Can I learn?Should probably be more worried about making time to learn...
My general (brief) impression so far is that the changes make sense given the theme and the general broad representation of transform this time around - sure, we've had scary monsters and the like before but between the Spirits and the like I feel having the Werewolf theme work outside of Werewolves themselves isn't too strange. Functionally they seem similar, and some cards Brutal Cathar encourage you to repeatedly transform, which I think is a good evolution of the design - werewolves in the seemed to always want to be one side in particular, usually the back (but sometimes the front with cards like Duskwatch Recruiter). I prefer the reluctance to overhaul/rework cards. It gives Magic a sort of historical aspect comparable digital games like Hearthstone don't really have because nerfs/buffs happen all the time in them and thus you sort of lose track of them or vaguely muddy them all into the card they're about - in many cases, you never get to play with the old card ever again. Giving things a chance to rotate and be 'preserved' lets me try/introduce older cards whenever I want and makes me feel less like I'm missing out. (In fact, this is part of why I'm even more hesitant to go back to Yugioh nowadays, because many old cards received nerf errata and basically don't work like they used to or have a blatant heavy restriction on them now - Sangan and Sinister Serpent come to mind.)
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Post by dangerousdice on Oct 1, 2021 3:18:36 GMT
hello!I've been away for a while, but I'm hope to post more frequently.(his voice seems... to have a strange hollowness.) I, for one, like the more frequent set releases, as I really like keeping up with all the new mechanics and lore and cards, but I realize that not everyone enjoys this much.I'll try to answer more questions, but no guarantees.  hey! I've made a illusion, but I'm not sure how long it'll last. I'm going to try to find an escape route. keep hope!
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Post by ZephyrPhantom on Oct 1, 2021 4:37:31 GMT
Damn, I was all ready to go with the furneral pyre, too.
You're not even at the jail cell right now!
Well, you can't just light a giant bonfire in jail. It would be pretty inconvenient.
...do you even have any concept of mortality?
That's a good question. Why don't we let the audience guess that?
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ArkiThe7th
1/1 Squirrel
Any plant is edible if you’re not a coward.
Posts: 82
Favorite Card: Wee Dragonauts
Favorite Set: Pauper Masters (wait a second...)
Color Alignment: Blue, Red
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Post by ArkiThe7th on Oct 1, 2021 9:06:57 GMT
hello!I've been away for a while, but I'm hope to post more frequently.(his voice seems... to have a strange hollowness.) I, for one, like the more frequent set releases, as I really like keeping up with all the new mechanics and lore and cards, but I realize that not everyone enjoys this much.I'll try to answer more questions, but no guarantees. hey! I've made a illusion, but I'm not sure how long it'll last. I'm going to try to find an escape route. keep hope! They return! Glad to have you back. A little worried how eager my fellow panel members were to immolate you, though… As for the question, I don’t really have many strong opinions. I generally like it when WotC updates rules and creatures types to be more consistent/make more sense, but I do agree with ZephyrPhantom that there’s a certain level of history that comes with magic. When I look at a card printed 25 years ago, I know what it does. I think that’s important because what Magic has been is very interesting. I can look through the sets and see the evolution of the game, that’s really cool! On the other side, I’m almost universally in favor of creature type erratas and changes. I love it when a simple change to a creature type can open up a new tribe: like Phyrexians, for example. The only creature type change that I don’t like is the unjust errata of Uncle Istvan’s creature type from “Uncle Istvan” to “Human.” It’s a disgrace to the game of Magic the Gathering! |
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Post by sdfkjgh on Oct 1, 2021 17:28:53 GMT
Welcome back, dangerousdice. You had me worried there for far too long! What did Kels do to you? |
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Post by ZephyrPhantom on Oct 1, 2021 18:47:26 GMT
A little worried how eager my fellow panel members were to immolate you, though… I feel like it's worth reminding everyone that I'm a bit disturbed myself and I claim no responsibility for whatever's decided to take my rotting corpse. I do feel one oddity worth pointing out with the Phyrexian creature type in that it takes Plague Engineer's already high power as a silver bullet and just salts the wound to tribal decks by hosing Infect as well. Not sure if this holds 100% true seeing as Infect still has record-worthy metagame share in Modern/Legacy (0.7%/1% according to mtgtop8) but I do know the strategy is 'known' for struggling a bit against better decks these days. It's interesting but without enough experience on Infect or handling Plague Man I'm not really sure how strong an impact it is. On the other hand, I'm not the biggest fan of the Proliferate change. I get that it was done to streamline it in Arena and that most of the time the only counters that show up on creatures are +1/+1 and -1/-1 (which cancel), but it's still kind of an eh feeling for making some niche situations worse. |
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ArkiThe7th
1/1 Squirrel
Any plant is edible if you’re not a coward.
Posts: 82
Favorite Card: Wee Dragonauts
Favorite Set: Pauper Masters (wait a second...)
Color Alignment: Blue, Red
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Post by ArkiThe7th on Oct 2, 2021 6:24:56 GMT
A little worried how eager my fellow panel members were to immolate you, though… I feel like it's worth reminding everyone that I'm a bit disturbed myself and I claim no responsibility for whatever's decided to take my rotting corpse. I understand, I just didn’t know what to call it, and I didn’t want to offend it. It seems like something I don’t want to antagonize. |
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Post by Daij_Djan on Oct 3, 2021 17:28:12 GMT
Wait. Am I just hearing voices in mind head thanks to this drink again – or is that really you, dangerousdice? Guess while I try to figure out whether I should maybe try to get sober again, I might as well answer the second question first.. First of all: I like the new Day/Night mechanic, it's a cool evolution of the old werewolves. That being said, I'm really glad they didn't update the old furries nethertheless. To me, Magic is at hearth still a paper game – and I hope it'll continue being one at least for a while – and when I read a card, I want to be able to know what it does. Adding new Magic slag is one thing – but changing a card's rules to me is a big change I'll rarely be happy with. Typeline changes are fine since I get why they're useful, and ironically I don't mind the Proliferate change as much since it's „just“ one word of reminder text. I know it plays very differently, but the card itself didn't have to change much But then again, changing how it plays does matter. I guess it's time to get back to the old vs new werewolves topic: I'm currently pondering about a deck using Moonmist for the Deckbuilders Challenge. That card does in fact not work with the new werewolves, though. So if WotC would now update the old ones, Moonmist wouldn't work with them anymore either – unless its wording would be changed to a Unnatural Moonrise-like one. But then it suddenly wouldn't work with cards like Jerren, Corrupted Bishop anymore.. What I mean is: Magic is a big game with lots of interactions. Changing one or some cards also changes the interactions that card has with others. It's a ripple effect – and one I don't link much. I much prefer WotC designing cards like Tovolar, Dire Overlord, that bring old and new designs together nicely. |
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Post by sdfkjgh on Oct 3, 2021 17:40:19 GMT
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foureyesisafish
7/7 Elemental
Posts: 388
Favorite Set: Ikoria: Lair of the Behemoths
Color Alignment: Blue, Red, Green
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Post by foureyesisafish on Oct 3, 2021 18:13:23 GMT
Oh Daybound/Nightbound. I love the mechanic and would hope that (at least most) future werewolves use it over the old werewolf mechanic (the few notable differences makes Day/Night way cooler to play, as it allows you to use flash to your advantage). On the dichotomy, I view it as just an annoying inevitability of the new mechanic, but cards like Tovolar bridge the two together perfectly.
Also, speaking of, TOVOLAR. The werewolf commander is finally here, and boy does he not disappoint!
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Post by sdfkjgh on Oct 4, 2021 17:31:42 GMT
So, we're pretty much all in agreement on all of the points. I'm just gonna point out that in one or two recent Drive to Work episodes, MaRo covered many of these same points.
Ok, our next Question comes from Daij_Djan : As this is, at its core, a design forum: What are your thoughts on WotC for the first time in ages (and after stating so often why they wouldn't do it anymore) keywording a pure downside mechanic once again? |
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ArkiThe7th
1/1 Squirrel
Any plant is edible if you’re not a coward.
Posts: 82
Favorite Card: Wee Dragonauts
Favorite Set: Pauper Masters (wait a second...)
Color Alignment: Blue, Red
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Post by ArkiThe7th on Oct 5, 2021 10:50:23 GMT
I don’t feel that decayed is actually that bad of a downside mechanic. Since it’s only on tokens, it doesn’t seem like a big deal. I think it actually does a good job of making sure that you can’t get swarmed by tokens, and adds another layer of decisions to make.
I think the most important thing to consider when making a downside mechanic is “does this make the game more interesting?” By necessity, some cards won’t be able to do some things. Creatures not being able to block is already something that we’re very familiar with, especially in black. Creatures getting sacrificed after attacking is less common, but still something we’ve seen before. Also, since the mechanic is only on one type of token, it’s fairly self-contained. In fact, those sorts of small, easy to make tokens are what black loves to use as sacrifice fodder, so the downsides aren’t as important.
I don’t think downside keywords are amazing, but when they’re done well - like decayed, I think they can make the game a little more interesting.
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Post by dangerousdice on Oct 8, 2021 1:32:20 GMT
I think decayed is a solid mechanic. it's not exciting, and their probably won't any decks built around it, but it's well balanced.
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Post by ZephyrPhantom on Oct 8, 2021 8:25:59 GMT
We thought about it, I guess.
Ultimately the point boils down to "they're exciting if done right and in moderation." Decayed on tokens seems like a fun way to make a card advantage upside that promotes aggressive limited. Decayed on creatures...not so sure. Hey, the bone soup here tastes great, by the way.
I don't even want to know what kind of bones those things were from.
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Post by sdfkjgh on Oct 8, 2021 19:15:57 GMT
We thought about it, I guess. Ultimately the point boils down to "they're exciting if done right and in moderation." Decayed on tokens seems like a fun way to make a card advantage upside that promotes aggressive limited. Decayed on creatures...not so sure. Hey, the bone soup here tastes great, by the way.I don't even want to know what kind of bones those things were from. If it's anything like how I make my stock, it's a little bit of everything, and I do mean everything! |
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Post by sdfkjgh on Oct 9, 2021 23:56:33 GMT
foureyesisafish, Daij_Djan, do either of you have anything to say on the matter? I'm guessing that Daij_Djan is waiting for everyone else's opinion, since it's his question.
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Post by Daij_Djan on Oct 10, 2021 9:14:00 GMT
I at least didn't want to be the first one to answer - and then have been busy these past few days Will respond either tonight or tomorrow, though |
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foureyesisafish
7/7 Elemental
Posts: 388
Favorite Set: Ikoria: Lair of the Behemoths
Color Alignment: Blue, Red, Green
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Post by foureyesisafish on Oct 11, 2021 13:16:36 GMT
Direct quote from the depths of my subconscious:
YESSSS feed me more pure downside mechanics.
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Post by Daij_Djan on Oct 12, 2021 10:02:47 GMT
Personally, I'm a big fan of downsides and not everything being all upside ( Mizzium Mortars should never have excluded your own creatures) – so I was obviously thrilled to se them print something like Decayed. I think the interesting part for me as a designer is however why they did so. In the past, the general consencus was how mechanics are supposed to make you feel excited – when you see a mechanic printed on a card it should make you want to read its reminder text and be happy for the mechanic to be featured on said card. Downside mechanics however don't do this, as the card would be better and more exciting without it – which is why besides the highly prominent and flavorful Defender they weren't used anymore. Still, Decayed exists – so does this means WotC's attititude towards downside mechanics has changed? Personally, I don't think so. Since it’s only on tokens, it doesn’t seem like a big deal. Rather, I think this is the important part. Decayed is never featured on the card itself but only on tokens and reanimated other creatures ( Ghouls' Night Out and Gisa, Glorious Resurrector say hi) – lessening the „feel-bad“ issues downside mechanics have. I might be overthinking this and going completely overboard, but personally I think this fits in line with one of my general design guidelines: We all know, there are some things WotC just doesn't do. They could, technically – but they choose not to. And a big questions these no-gos always propose to us is: Should we costum card designers follow them or not? Some say yes, some say no – personally, to me the answer is „kind of“. Imho it's important to figure out why such a design rule was put into place in the first place – and then figure out a way to solve these issues (or at least lessen them) when you want to break the guideline anyway. |
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Post by ZephyrPhantom on Oct 12, 2021 13:20:55 GMT
I think the big thing is that Decayed was used to to promote new kinds of designs that could encourage people to think about how to creatively/effectively play them. I remember MaRo stating something along the lines of the fact that Decayed allowed development to play with much lower costs on token creating cards than would normally be given (effectively equating to a cantrip in most cases which is usually +0-1 mana). It's been designed in a way that it feels fresh to play. I might be overthinking this and going completely overboard, but personally I think this fits in line with one of my general design guidelines: We all know, there are some things WotC just doesn't do. They could, technically – but they choose not to. And a big questions these no-gos always propose to us is: Should we costum card designers follow them or not? Some say yes, some say no – personally, to me the answer is „kind of“. Imho it's important to figure out why such a design rule was put into place in the first place – and then figure out a way to solve these issues (or at least lessen them) when you want to break the guideline anyway. There was a recent card discussion on CoTW regarding the reocurring "Simic destroy creature" card design that tends to pop up. I think I made a similar conclusion there - it's less about if you can/can't do it and more about why it has/hasn't been done. Understanding that helps make for more plausible designs (if not sets) overall. I think, in theory, with the "right" set/metagame, you can theoretically justify printing anything promote certain gameplay (and reinforce it with flavor, but that should come second). However, certain designs are extremely unlikely to be printed by WoTC outside of that very specific case, sort of like a preemptive Storm scale. A drawback mechanic in small/appropriate doses to create excitement is much much more likely to appear than "Destroy target creature" in Simic. |
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"When in doubt, do a common." 
