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Post by sdfkjgh on Oct 12, 2021 18:44:03 GMT
Moe, Larry, & Curly. I don't know if these three came about because of decayed, or before it in the design process, but it's cards like these that make you ask the question "When is a downside mechanic not so much of a downside?" It's also cards like these that increase the depth of design for such "downside"* mechanics.
Also, as any Johnny or Jenny will tell you (mebbe not in so many words, or indeed any words), there's no such thing as a downside mechanic, at least not really; only mechanics that must be utilized differently in order to maximize their value. Sometimes that different utilization takes a couple decades in order to manifest itself.
Ok, our next Question comes from ZephyrPhantom : It has been said that a good chunk of mechanics can be described as "<previous mechanic>, but X". How do you feel about Disturbed in relation to its predecessors? (Entomb/Eternalize, Flashback, more spell-based counterparts like Aftermath and Jump-Start)
{Zeph forgot about unearth.}
{Ral: Then again, why would anyone actually want to remember it?}
*"Air-quotes"™©® Dr. Evil. |
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Post by ZephyrPhantom on Oct 12, 2021 19:04:47 GMT
I wasn't sure whether Unearth counted or not because it removes the creature after bringing it back. The first three all generally replicate the original version of the effect (or do it, but scale it up).
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Post by sdfkjgh on Oct 13, 2021 17:20:28 GMT
I wasn't sure whether Unearth counted or not because it removes the creature after bringing it back. The first three all generally replicate the original version of the effect (or do it, but scale it up). As the first attempt to do "flashback, but for creatures *inhales deeply on a spliff*, man!", I say it definitely counts. |
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ArkiThe7th
1/1 Squirrel
Any plant is edible if you’re not a coward.
Posts: 82
Favorite Card: Wee Dragonauts
Favorite Set: Pauper Masters (wait a second...)
Color Alignment: Blue, Red
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Post by ArkiThe7th on Oct 16, 2021 0:17:22 GMT
*Sorry it took me a bit to respond to this question. I got busy with a speech tournament.
I actually really like it when we get tweaked versions of old mechanics. I think it gives me a sort of nostalgia, and makes the mechanic feel more familiar and easier to understand. It’s a lot easier to say Jumpstart’s just like Flashback1, but you discard a card. It’s also a way to introduce newer players to older mechanics. It’s easy for new players to understand Flashback as just Jumpstart without a discard.
It’s also sort of necessary to have mechanically similar keywords. There’s only so many ways you can use a spell in your graveyard before it becomes Flashback, but blank. I think changing an existing keyword in a small way is also very effective for fleshing out the larger mechanics and flavor of a set. Going back to the Jumpstart example, it makes sense that the Izzet keyword would be similar to Flashback, but there’s a twist of having to discard a card to add that Izzet flair. Innistrad has always been known for its transformation effects and it’s graveyard effects, it makes sense to have a keyword that’s a combination of both.
However, I am almost always in favor of new, mechanically unique keywords over old ones with a twist. Nothing gets me more excited for a set2 than a really cool and unique keyword.
1: Jumpstart isn’t an exact copy of Flashback; you pay the spell’s normal cost instead of a Flashback cost, but the analogy still works.
2: Other than demon gangsters of course.
Oh, this is the devil that lurks in my footnotes, just ignore it.
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Post by sdfkjgh on Oct 19, 2021 16:08:09 GMT
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Post by Daij_Djan on Oct 21, 2021 12:46:20 GMT
Sorry for the delay. As you might have read, didn't feel so good and then have been busy catching up with CotW stuff this week - will add my response maybe today when I get home or more likely tomorrow (since I have that day off) 
And here we go! First of all, I for the most part like WotC twisting existing mechanics. As they say, half of all mechanics are basically Kicker anyway – and as ArkiThe7th mentioned, already feeling slightly familiar with a „new“ mechanic often makes it easier for players to connect with it while still feeling new (except when WotC overdoes the laziness, obviously).. Also it's worth keeping in mind, Magic has a vast but still limited possible design space. And if WotC would try to make each mechanic as unique as possible they would move out of new design space quite fast – especially with the new set model. MaRo actually even talked about this in one of his recent podcasts: Since there are no blocks anymore, mechanics are usually only used for a single set and then already replaced with a new bunch. As far as Disturb is concerned: I like it. I think “Aftermath for creatures“ is the best comparison here, since both mechanics allow you to recast your cards from your graveyard but give you a different effect than the original spell did. The only thing that feels a bit weird to me is seeing the „If ~ would be put into a graveyard from anywhere, exile it instead.“ printed on all the cards as rules text rather than being incorporated into the mechanic itself. The clause is obviously necessary to make sure you can't recast your spell over and over, and I get why they'd want the clause to show up on the transformed side (to make sure it's not forgotten) – but it somehow irks me a bit nethertheless. |
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Post by dangerousdice on Oct 22, 2021 4:31:00 GMT
I enjoy them, and I think they open up tons of possibilities for unique card designs! However, I prefer it when they are more on the unique side, as I don't want to see more "it's flashback but..." that don't deviate too far. I like disturb because it adds an interesting element to a standard recursion. I don't like jumpstart as it just feels... like a rehash.
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Post by sdfkjgh on Oct 25, 2021 17:05:23 GMT
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foureyesisafish
7/7 Elemental
Posts: 388
Favorite Set: Ikoria: Lair of the Behemoths
Color Alignment: Blue, Red, Green
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Post by foureyesisafish on Oct 26, 2021 11:55:28 GMT
I really, really like disturb. Actually, the best part of disturb for me is that it doesn't exile automatically, allowing it to also mimic other gravecast mechanics such as escape or retrace
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Post by sdfkjgh on Oct 26, 2021 17:22:46 GMT
It's a good thing I brought up unearth earlier, because I've actually been got by a disturbed creature that way. I was so used to unearth's "if it would leave the battlefield" exile clause. I'd actually prefer it if disturbed worked like that, so that it lines up with unearth, and so that bounce spells can be a form of permanent removal.
Idk, to me, disturbed feels more like a justification for DFCing than an actual mechanic; what can it do that can't be done by creature tokens, aside from confusing bounce shenanigans? Call me old fashioned--
Ral: Old fashioned?!? I'll have a double!!
But I still wanna see more done with retrace, like putting it on permanents.
Teferi: Hmmm, "Teferi, something time-related etbf with a loyalty counter on him for each land card in your gy. Retrace"
Non-planeswalker permanents! NON-PLANESWALKER PERMANENTS!
And finally, our Last Question comes from me: Just in time for Halloween, What are some of the most creative uses for Zombies you can think of? |
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Post by ZephyrPhantom on Oct 27, 2021 10:43:05 GMT
Ral: Old fashioned?!? I'll have a double!!
But I still wanna see more done with retrace, like putting it on permanents.
Teferi: Hmmm, "Teferi, something time-related etbf with a loyalty counter on him for each land card in your gy. Retrace"
Non-planeswalker permanents! NON-PLANESWALKER PERMANENTS!  |
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ArkiThe7th
1/1 Squirrel
Any plant is edible if you’re not a coward.
Posts: 82
Favorite Card: Wee Dragonauts
Favorite Set: Pauper Masters (wait a second...)
Color Alignment: Blue, Red
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Post by ArkiThe7th on Oct 30, 2021 9:14:38 GMT
I have a couple ideas for card designs. 11. A zombie creature that “loses limbs” when it takes damage. It could enter the battlefield with some amount of +1/+1 counters, and whenever it would be dealt damage, it removes a +1/+1 counter and makes a 3/1 “limb” creature token with decayed. The first time each turn one of the limbs leaves play, you put the +1/+1 counter back on the zombie. A lot of fun with doubling season. 2. Some sort of zombie that gets alerted from noise. It’s a pretty common pop-culture phenomenon that I don’t think MTG has done before. I can’t think of a good way to represent it mechanically, though. Maybe they have deathtouch when they block creatures with higher power? 3. Not exactly a zombie, but a counter spell that “buries” a spell. It flips the spell you want to counter face down as a 2/2 black Zombie creature. The caster can pay the spell’s mana cost to flip it face up and cast it. 4 A zombie planeswalker. No, no, go with me on this journey. It’s loyalty abilities are irrelevant except for one. You can pay 0 loyalty to turn the planeswalker into an X/X zombie creature with decayed and trample, where X equals the planeswalker’s loyalty. It’s inspired by Vebulid. 1: Most of them involve decayed. He’s addicted. |
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Post by sdfkjgh on Oct 30, 2021 15:59:17 GMT
I have a couple ideas for card designs. 11. A zombie creature that “loses limbs” when it takes damage. It could enter the battlefield with some amount of +1/+1 counters, and whenever it would be dealt damage, it removes a +1/+1 counter and makes a 3/1 “limb” creature token with decayed. The first time each turn one of the limbs leaves play, you put the +1/+1 counter back on the zombie. A lot of fun with doubling season. 2. Some sort of zombie that gets alerted from noise. It’s a pretty common pop-culture phenomenon that I don’t think MTG has done before. I can’t think of a good way to represent it mechanically, though. Maybe they have deathtouch when they block creatures with higher power? 3. Not exactly a zombie, but a counter spell that “buries” a spell. It flips the spell you want to counter face down as a 2/2 black Zombie creature. The caster can pay the spell’s mana cost to flip it face up and cast it. 4 A zombie planeswalker. No, no, go with me on this journey. It’s loyalty abilities are irrelevant except for one. You can pay 0 loyalty to turn the planeswalker into an X/X zombie creature with decayed and trample, where X equals the planeswalker’s loyalty. It’s inspired by Vebulid. 1: Most of them involve decayed. He’s addicted.I guess I should've specified, but I didn't necessarily mean strictly Magic designs for Zombies. Get real creative, let me know just what you'd do with an animated corpse irl! Rot optional.
Also,
1) I hate to tell you this, but It's All Been Done. ("Alright, we'll call it a draw.")
3) I thought for certain there already was something like "Manifest target spell card.", but the closest we have is actually Reality Shift.
The rest of you, let's see if we can get this episode finished before Halloween ends.
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Post by Daij_Djan on Oct 31, 2021 9:50:51 GMT
But I still wanna see more done with retrace, like putting it on permanents. Teferi: Hmmm, "Teferi, something time-related etbf with a loyalty counter on him for each land card in your gy. Retrace" I like that Well, I assume you all know the Infinite Monkey Theorem? I always asked myself: Why use monkey for this? They need all those bananas to feed them, all the time make breaks throwing their.. stuff around.. So why not use zombies instead?! They work without breaks and don't require any sustenance. Don't think there's a point in redoing the complete works of William Shakespeare though – so let's instead make them design all Magic cards of the past, the present, and the future |
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Post by sdfkjgh on Oct 31, 2021 18:22:37 GMT
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Post by Daij_Djan on Nov 1, 2021 1:23:02 GMT
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Post by sdfkjgh on Nov 3, 2021 19:15:55 GMT
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foureyesisafish
7/7 Elemental
Posts: 388
Favorite Set: Ikoria: Lair of the Behemoths
Color Alignment: Blue, Red, Green
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Post by foureyesisafish on Nov 6, 2021 12:48:56 GMT
"4 A zombie planeswalker. No, no, go with me on this journey. It’s loyalty abilities are irrelevant except for one. You can pay 0 loyalty to turn the planeswalker into an X/X zombie creature with decayed and trample, where X equals the planeswalker’s loyalty. It’s inspired by Vebulid."
...may or may not be in Nessythia. Otherwise, I love zombies in MID, and the reveal of VOW's zombies has just made me more hyped. UB Aristrocrats is an ARCHETYPE baby.
We've seen blue zombies, we've seen white zombies, and we've seen red zombies, so now I want some green zombies. Well, green zombies outside ravnica, obviously. SULTAI ZOMBIE FOR THE WIN
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Post by sdfkjgh on Nov 11, 2021 20:00:26 GMT
Shit. I think Kels' minions took dangerousdice again. If he doesn't answer in the next 24 hrs., we're continuing on without him. |
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Post by sdfkjgh on Nov 13, 2021 4:22:19 GMT
Well, I warned them.
Ok, so when I said "most creative uses for Zombies you can think of", I meant more like this:
1) This, but instead of empty bottles, we use Zombies. In fact, let's make an entire logZombie cabin! You've prolly heard the phrase, "pile the bodies up like cordwood", or some derivative? Well let's pile the bodies up like cordwood! And just to complete the logcabin motif, where's Abe Lincoln buried, let's see what we can do about getting him zombified!
2) Y'all remember David Letterman's recurring bit of replacing fireworks with things impacting the pavement from several dozen stories up?
3) Deep Rot. It may not be original, but it'd be fun to try.
4) Playing A Christmas Carol-style pranks on the entirety of the gop. It's real easy to know where the bodies are buried when those bodies are standing right behind you.
5) Finally getting justice for Max Brooks' brilliant vision and doing a World War Z: An Oral History of the Zombie War adaptation that isn't a complete and total embarrassing pile of fetid garbage. It should've been an anthology miniseries, and at least some of the storylines should've been directed by Ken Burns, dammit!
6) Irl recreations of all of the House of the Dead games, $1000 entry fee, 5 magazines included with price of purchase.
7) Blasphemous reenactments1 of the fandoms' favorite romantic Korean dramas.
8) Hello Kitty? MeatMeet Hello Zombie!
9) SURPRISE RANDOM ZOMBIE FIGHT!!!
10) "Hello, this is the Zombie Suicide Helpline; we help you commit suicide, then zombify your corpse. Please note that if you do contract our services, your revenant will be required to work our phones for the first three months of its afterlife. How may we Kevorkian up your day today?"2
11) For every person alive today, aren't there like a billion people who used to be alive? *Checks Google* Nope, only a little over 15. Should still be enough to illustrate to the ignorant just how badly our system has failed errbody.
12) Boy, that last one was quite the downer, wasn't it? How about we lighten the mood with a game of pin the body part on the Zombie, or mebbe we can play with Mr. Zombie Head (nicknamed Gnaghi).
13) {DATA EXPUNGED} This poster has been remanded to the custody of the FBI, and is forbidden from coming within a mile of any cemetery, mortuary, ossuary, mausoleum, body farm, morgue, crime scene, and/or buffet table/restaurant. Consider yourself lucky that you weren't remanded to my custody, boy! --Dr. Clef
1Hmmm, I wonder what kind of card Blasphemous Reenactment would be...
2Of course, that's what it says in the script. After the first two months, however, it starts to come out as "Uuuuuuuuuuugh, ee'eh-oh-ugh; e el ooo uh'iih oooeii, e o'eh'aii uuh oorr." And several butchers' aprons. |
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Post by sdfkjgh on Nov 13, 2021 5:12:33 GMT
And that brings this episode to a close. 12 days late, but w/e. As always, I'd like to thank my Panel, and invite them to say a few last words before we blow this popsicle stand.
Ral: Ew.
Just get Teferi & get ready to get us out of here before that bitch shows up again.
Teferi: No chance of that. I left her wandering somewhere on Equilor.
Aren't planeswalkers unable to walk with other people in tow?
Teferi: Noramlly, yes. But when you're a temporal archmage like me, you can go back in time to a working planar portal, then bum-toss her tight buns through it, Chicago-style.
Ral: Oooh, Teffers has a crush!
Hell, I'll ship it. But what will Niambi think?
Ral: Good point. Teffi, why don't you go and get her? Ask her what she thinks of her new stepmom.
Teferi: Kawai ka sake bani wani uzuri; Ba za su taɓa samun jiki ba, domin ko ɗaya daga cikinku da ba zai wanzu ba!
Ral: Great, he's speaking in tongues again. We should prolly lay off him for a while.
Anyway, Panel, any last words to close out the episode? |
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ArkiThe7th
1/1 Squirrel
Any plant is edible if you’re not a coward.
Posts: 82
Favorite Card: Wee Dragonauts
Favorite Set: Pauper Masters (wait a second...)
Color Alignment: Blue, Red
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Post by ArkiThe7th on Nov 15, 2021 22:21:53 GMT
I think that was a good episode. See you all next time!
I miss the luxury suite…
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Post by ZephyrPhantom on Nov 16, 2021 3:52:05 GMT
I find myself wishing I had more time to write more interesting answers (really chaffing to get back to doing proper Battle Boards reworks here...), but having the conversation move along at a timely pace is good too.
I'd say I miss the suite too but it's not exactly like I can touch anything, eat anything, or the like. Pretty sure I'm going to have to look into getting a new body...
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Post by Daij_Djan on Nov 16, 2021 22:41:44 GMT
Considering dangerousdice hasn't been online in quite some time – Kels might indeed have taken him away.. I do have an idea, though – my infinite Zombie army should also be able to give us his closing statement as well.. So let's take a look at what they're doing right now: That's clearly not what I've had in mind – maybe monkeys might be the better choice afterall? That aside: This was fun! Can't wait for the next episode |
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Post by sdfkjgh on Nov 17, 2021 17:39:21 GMT
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Post by Daij_Djan on Nov 19, 2021 17:46:30 GMT
If they don't, we might give my zombies a second chance and see what they came up with in the meantime..? * peeks outside* (PG-13 warning)... We might want to leave sooner than later.. |
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Post by ZephyrPhantom on Nov 19, 2021 20:00:42 GMT
Seems perfectly fine to me.
Well, it's nice to know someone's not afraid of death.
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Post by sdfkjgh on Nov 23, 2021 20:00:05 GMT
I think Kels got foureyesisafish as well. We're dropping like flies here, guys! Ral, Teferi, can't you do something?
Teferi: Ok, yeah, this has gone on long enough. Ral, you got a destination plotted?
Ral: Sorry, all these mini-Immortal Suns are messing with my navigation. We go anywhere, we're going in blind.
Teferi: And nobody likes blind jumps.
A-ten Ba'Ro: I beg your pardon?!
Teferi: Oh, come off it, man. Even He's disowned that story for being of such poorly written and inferior quality!
A-ten Ba'Ro: You're right, it wasn't any good. Sparking from a combination of massive envenomation via ant sting and heat stroke, who ever heard of such a lame way to ascend?!
Guys, if we could all just stop with the literary critique, and focus on getting us out of here?!
Ral: Alright. 'Walking in 5...4--
PUNCH IT!!!
Ral: threetwoonego!
I'll never be cruel to a Gin & tonic again! |
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Post by ZephyrPhantom on Nov 24, 2021 4:37:43 GMT
...so, how the hell are we going to find them? No idea. Hey, that Immortal Slurp-A-Durp or whatever it was called still work?I'm pretty sure you broke it. Hell, you surely must know I'm a planeswalker by now. What's next, messing with my spark? Still belongs to me and all that. Oh please. You should've seen when Miss Myojin of Night's Reach tore up the streets back in the day. And by that I mean she literally tore up the streets because she couldn't pay up....I'll ask about that another time. I'm assuming on my own for finding a replacement body? Wellll, if you sign here...Hell no. |
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foureyesisafish
7/7 Elemental
Posts: 388
Favorite Set: Ikoria: Lair of the Behemoths
Color Alignment: Blue, Red, Green
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Post by foureyesisafish on Nov 24, 2021 21:46:34 GMT
protrudes from portal
no comment
returns to portal
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"When in doubt, do a common." 
