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Post by Tesagk on Jul 22, 2018 18:15:08 GMT
They pretty much speak for themselves. Pretty sure balance is off, but hopefully people find the concept fun enough to help me fix them. Edit: One of the main themes of this set is going to be tribal. Specifically, being able to put multiple tribes together depending on the flavor you want. I would rather talk about the specific cards as they stand with the information you have about them, than nitpicking whether or not I'm going to fail at something I haven't even had a chance to fail at yet. I've already failed plenty enough with these  |
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Post by fluffydeathbringer on Jul 22, 2018 18:44:16 GMT
the balance is extremely off on Avara Denath at the very least, yeah. let's count the ways
- one-mana permanent with "at the beginning of your upkeep, draw a card", when that's the fare of 5+CMC (Honden of Seeing Winds, Overbeing of Myth, Staff of Nin). the card advantage you get from this if you play it t1 is ridiculous
- with flash - 1/3
- basically uncounterable free "draw five cards" baked into it - which doesn't get interrupted if one Avara gets killed and you cast another one - all of this, again, at one mana
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Post by fluffydeathbringer on Jul 22, 2018 18:46:00 GMT
oh and Odalla will never transform because her first ability puts kill counters on her, while the transform ability checks for kill counters you have. same with Ciara
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Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on Jul 22, 2018 19:36:04 GMT
Aren't Spellshapers supposed to have an ability that reads "{Mana}, ::T::, Discard a card: {Effect}"?
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Post by Lady Mapi on Jul 22, 2018 19:54:25 GMT
Does your set have other Sages, Prophets, Paladins, and Bards? Because none of those are standard creature subtypes. Ivala is also pretty broken. She could flip T3 or T4 if you get a decent starting hand (or are playing EDH/Brawl). A free  each turn as you swing away with your 10/10 hexproof trampler is a bit much. A 1-drop where the only reasonable solution is a board-wipe is not a great idea. She's almost as good as Avara's "  -to-draw-five-cards" tech. Seriously, the entire cycle is so incredibly pushed it isn't funny. Even if these didn't flip, the  entries would still be ridiculously pushed, and the   cards would still be questionable. Also, your cards are wordy as hell. As a rule of thumb, dial back whenever you see the font start to shrink - people with poor eyesight (like myself) will thank you. |
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Post by Tesagk on Jul 22, 2018 22:59:18 GMT
the balance is extremely off on Avara Denath at the very least, yeah. let's count the ways
- one-mana permanent with "at the beginning of your upkeep, draw a card", when that's the fare of 5+CMC (Honden of Seeing Winds, Overbeing of Myth, Staff of Nin). the card advantage you get from this if you play it t1 is ridiculous
- with flash - 1/3
- basically uncounterable free "draw five cards" baked into it - which doesn't get interrupted if one Avara gets killed and you cast another one - all of this, again, at one mana
Yeah, hers is pretty dumb. I think I'm going to make it a scry. |
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Post by Tesagk on Jul 22, 2018 23:03:28 GMT
Does your set have other Sages, Prophets, Paladins, and Bards? Because none of those are standard creature subtypes. ... It's a custom set. Why WOULDN'T they be in it? The rest of your comments are fine, but this is asinine. |
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Post by fluffydeathbringer on Jul 22, 2018 23:18:05 GMT
which leads me to: 1) why are the new types there when they're pretty much covered fluffwise by pre-existing types (except for Bard and, if I squint, Prophet) and 2) a mythic with a slow transform condition making my <type>s also be other <type>s isn't helpful to the (I assume) purpose of facilitating dual-tribal decks since it'll take an eternity and a day to actually get to the point where it helps for that purpose, and in limited they'll just never show up to aspiring dual-tribal drafters anyway
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Post by Tesagk on Jul 22, 2018 23:25:54 GMT
which leads me to: 1) why are the new types there when they're pretty much covered fluffwise by pre-existing types (except for Bard and, if I squint, Prophet) and 2) a mythic with a slow transform condition making my <type>s also be other <type>s isn't helpful to the (I assume) purpose of facilitating dual-tribal decks since it'll take an eternity and a day to actually get to the point where it helps for that purpose, and in limited they'll just never show up to aspiring dual-tribal drafters anyway You needn't worry, got rid of MOST of those effects Comments and critiques considered, new versions up. |
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Post by Fleur on Jul 22, 2018 23:54:30 GMT
1/3 for one mana is pushed but fine on vanilla, probably. A 1/3 for one mana with significant upside on the other hand, is anything but fine. I'd make Avara and Ivala 0/2s and Odalla a 1/2 with an activated to give deathtouch, probably. Right now these are far too strong.
Avara's wording should be "whenever you scry". Also, nonstandard creature types generally should have a decent reason behind them - mostly a last resort if nothing else represents them. Hence, I'm iffy about Paladin, when Paladins are literally Knights with a religious bent and some magic. Sage is very similar to Advisor. Bard actually feels pretty justified and is totally something I'd add, since I can't think of a creature type that would cover Bard well except for well... Bard. Prophet could also probably be Wizard.
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Post by Daij_Djan on Jul 22, 2018 23:59:39 GMT
Does your set have other Sages, Prophets, Paladins, and Bards? Because none of those are standard creature subtypes. ... It's a custom set. Why WOULDN'T they be in it? The rest of your comments are fine, but this is asinine. Actually, this is a totally valid question. If you add new creature types, questions to whether you do this intentionally or simply don't know the standard ones pop up for multiple reasons:
- Some of us try to keep this as close to WotC standards as possible, so it gets noticed easily (a.k.a. instantly). - Especially when something could easily be a standard creature type (in your case Knight vs. Paladin really is noticable considering there are 27 paladins in the game and they all are Knights indeed) there's the question of "is making it different just for the sake of making it different really worth it?" - And to dig deeper on that question, does your set support your new tribes? Because if it does, then it's parasitic. If it doesn't, then you're just throwing away the support official tribes offer without any replacement. Both can be fine, but is something to keep in mind.
So all in all, while it's indeed totally valid to use other creature types for custom sets, doing so has consequences. Making you aware of these (or asking whether you are aware) is very good feedback. Sure, (in most cases) not as groundbreaking as feedback on the set's mechanics or similar, but still.
EDIT: Ninja'd  |
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Post by Lady Mapi on Jul 23, 2018 0:54:30 GMT
Does your set have other Sages, Prophets, Paladins, and Bards? Because none of those are standard creature subtypes. ... It's a custom set. Why WOULDN'T they be in it? The rest of your comments are fine, but this is asinine. For better interactions with other sets? The fluffy one above me pretty much covers the majority of my point, but I'll throw in a few additions: • One of the things you see all the time in custom sets are a fair whack of subtypes that only show up on a single cycle. So no, it's not a given that you'd include more than just the ones you're presenting here. • If you set has Sage/Prophet/Paladin/Bard tribal interactions, it's going to be frustrating to build decks around that unless those types are one of the primary gimmicks of the set (like Allies or Dinosaurs). It'll also force those tribal decks to look really similar, since anyone who wants to play a Sage deck would have the same 10-or-so cards in it. • Having thematically related but mechanically distinct subtypes is frustrating, especially if they only show up in one/two sets. If I'm building a Kaseto, Orochi Archmage deck, I should be able to slot in stuff like Sultai Flayer... except if I do, it won't get the boost from my general. That makes me, in particular, quite sad. In other words, do you have a good reason to have Paladins and Knights in the same set? EDIT: This is what I get for starting this post and then going to get pizza before finishing it... |
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Post by Tesagk on Jul 23, 2018 0:56:53 GMT
... It's a custom set. Why WOULDN'T they be in it? The rest of your comments are fine, but this is asinine. Actually, this is a totally valid question. If you add new creature types, questions to whether you do this intentionally or simply don't know the standard ones pop up for multiple reasons:
- Some of us try to keep this as close to WotC standards as possible, so it gets noticed easily (a.k.a. instantly). - Especially when something could easily be a standard creature type (in your case Knight vs. Paladin really is noticable considering there are 27 paladins in the game and they all are Knights indeed) there's the question of "is making it different just for the sake of making it different really worth it?" - And to dig deeper on that question, does your set support your new tribes? Because if it does, then it's parasitic. If it doesn't, then you're just throwing away the support official tribes offer without any replacement. Both can be fine, but is something to keep in mind.
So all in all, while it's indeed totally valid to use other creature types for custom sets, doing so has consequences. Making you aware of these (or asking whether you are aware) is very good feedback. Sure, (in most cases) not as groundbreaking as feedback on the set's mechanics or similar, but still.
EDIT: Ninja'd I still think it's a bit fussy. Yes, since I haven't posted the whole set yet, one could assume that there might be an issue there. But if I'm doing a custom set and introducing new creature types, support for those types is likely to be in there. At least let me get it wrong before being corrected on it, that just exudes condescension to me. |
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Post by Tesagk on Jul 23, 2018 0:58:35 GMT
It's not productive to start assuming things. I'm asking for opinions on these specific cards, not critiques on a whole set which has yet to be shared. I think it's fair to give at LEAST a little bit of benefit of the doubt, rather than piling on.
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Post by Tesagk on Jul 23, 2018 1:00:16 GMT
The set IS going to be very tribal oriented. I removed some of those effects because of "too much going on one card" but it doesn't mean that those ideas, and similar ones, won't be used on other cards =/
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Post by Tesagk on Jul 23, 2018 1:03:25 GMT
Making some quick edits because some things weren't taken out of the cards that should have been. They're still "version 2."
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Post by Tesagk on Jul 23, 2018 2:21:24 GMT
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Post by Jéské Couriano on Jul 23, 2018 2:38:56 GMT
I like Foretell, but maybe you could word it closer to scry (which has gotten significant wordsmithing since Fifth Dawn)?
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impspiritguide
2/2 Zombie
Favorite Color: Brown
Posts: 129
Set Hub: http://magicseteditor.boards.net/thread/256/pokemon-thread
Formerly Known As: Imp Elemental Spirit Guide
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Post by impspiritguide on Jul 23, 2018 3:19:36 GMT
First the fact that they have brought back spell fizzle made my day yesterday. Now if they would only bring back mana burn (my favorite way to win) then I'd be like a cat in a catnip factory.
To start with you should do something about the counters given to the player. The set of cards reminds me of the Unglued like card a friend of mine made way back in early 00's. It was a card that used +1/+1, -1/-1, and two other types of counters all on the same card. It worked as an Unglued card but was too confusing for real play. A player using your set will have problems keeping track of all of the different counters they have. Couple this with the fact that this puts the counters into a goldfish positiong (an aspect of play that is one-sided ending the conversation that results from battle), and you have issues. I'm assuming you did this because you want your cards to be able to restart the clock where they left of if destroyed or exiled (aka you can play Abrina the second time after she has been removed from play and she instantly flips), as this is the result of this option.
I see two possible solutions: 1: You can put the counters on the cards and suck it up when they are destroyed or removed from play. or 2: You can make all of the counters the same type. If you do this you will need to slow down their counter production or increase the number produced as having two of the legends on the board will make the flips go really quickly. If you do 2 or even keep it they way they are then you will need to include ways for opponents to interact with player counters using other cards in your set (if you are frustrated with counterspells imagine playing a round of games where you have no way to defend against your opponent's flying creatures as this is the same effect).
You need to consider the wording on Ciara d'Wali, I'm not sure that given the current wording she will ever receive a song counter (I read it as every creature that deals damage DURING the end of turn step). I can't fix the wording for you but it I think it needs fixed.
Individual cards: The remakes of the op look a lot better for the pre-flip cards (I don't have enough play experience with flip cards to determine the flip sides).
In the following keep in mind that I still own very few cards that are Modern legal so some of my critique may be because I'm not used to the current power creep.
Avara still seems a little powerful for the casting cost (I'd reduce her toughness to 2 or 1).
Odalla also seems a little powerful for the casting cost, deathtouch with a high toughness is a powerful ability.
I would personally switch Abrina Squire from Vigilance to Defender because if just seems to fit the card flavorwise better (going from timid squire to avenging knight). You could also then switch giving +2/+2 to giving -1/-1 and give here a little teeth.
Abrina's Elite is a little over powered, I'd personally remove her soldiers vigilance but other options are available.
I can't judge New Etera's Masters (how prowess ever seemed to be a blue ability instead of red is beyond me, but it is so shrug)
I really like Odalla's Finest but she seems like she should be at least 4 CMC instead of 3. Not sure of the current timing of combat, but if they have rechanged it so that you can use an instant to return her to your hand after dealing damage but before receiving it then she needs to be even higher than this.
Ciara's Maestravas is definitely overpowered a 4/3 Haste for 4CMC is already questionable and add the other ability and she needs nerfed somehow.
I think Ivala's Visionary is also overpowered, a vanilla 2/4 for 3CMC would might be reasonable and his ability is really powerful. I'd cut it to a 1/1 or a 1/2 and then I don't see a problem.
EDIT: I do have a question; this set is it going to be designed for draft or constructed or both. It can make a difference.
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Post by Lady Mapi on Jul 23, 2018 3:46:24 GMT
It's not productive to start assuming things. I'm asking for opinions on these specific cards, not critiques on a whole set which has yet to be shared. I think it's fair to give at LEAST a little bit of benefit of the doubt, rather than piling on. I apologize if that came off as piling on - as I mentioned, I started posting and then went for pizza halfway through. I wouldn't have posted that if I had known that people were going to follow up on it. That being said... no, I can't give you the benefit of the doubt (I wish the world worked that way, though). Speaking from experience as someone who has made a large number of exceptionally terrible decisions, both creatively and in life in general... people miss things. Sometimes they miss things that should be amazingly obvious¹, and other people who do know better don't point those bits out because, well, they seem obvious. And due to the unfortunate fact that I wasn't born with the capacity to read minds, I can't know whether or not you did some basic sanity checks vis-a-vis the environment these guys will be living in. That's why I asked - in retrospect, my wording was a bit more aggressive than I had intended. Again, apologies.
Back to the cards at hand: • "Monoblack" is not a term within the rules. And, honestly, I don't see why that restriction would even be in there. I also question why you're restricting it to just your turn, since deathtouch is primarily a defensive ability. • That activated ability on Ciara, The Phoenix Song is... I'm not sure that it works, exactly (the vagaries of the reverse sides of transform cards never really stuck with me). More pertinently, even if it does work, it is quite broken. It essentially turns her into an uncounterable 5/4 with First Strike, Flash, Haste, and Prowess with some anthem-esque effects stapled on... that you can cast from the graveyard or exile. For  . Compare that to Squee, the Immortal, who is (other than his "cast me from pretty much anywhere" effect) a vanilla 2/1. It also, you know, gets rid of having to care about her flip condition. Just dump her in your 'yard and you're cooking with gas. Not that her condition is all that hard to hit - she essentially rewards you for playing the game. • The cycle is pretty wonky. Three of the cards are color lords (Avara and Ivala don't care about their colors, the others do), and four of them are creature lords (Odalla only cares about black). Two of them pull off "this subtype is now also that subtype" shenanigans. That's... weird, since cycles are usually a bit more mechanically similar to each-other. It also feels pretty odd that Ivala is the only one that can't flip herself, and how Abrina only cares about herself when generating counters. • Most of the pre-flip sides are a bit pushed, but otherwise fine... except for Abrina. Holy shit, Abrina. Even if she didn't flip, I'd play her, because a 0/4 Vigilance for is an amazing platform for buffing, especially since she has half of Bushido 2. She's a wall that a lot of early-game aggro just won't be able to get past. I mean, all of the pre-flipped stats are a bit high (other than Ciara's), but hers are notably so. • The post-flip sides have very pushed bodies. Bear in mind that, due to the flip triggers, you'll be dropping those guys for in the late game. And, given their nastiness, that's a bit of an issue. Seriously, take a look at some other requirements to transform - I can't think of any other one-way transformations that A) don't cost mana and B) give as massive a boost as these guys do. • Do you need the counters? I can see those getting confusing if you're running parts of the cycle together (since Prowess stacks, I can see people running Ciara and Avara together, getting Prowess x2 on all of their wizards and Prowess x4 on the legendaries). I don't really have any good alternatives that wouldn't break what you're going for in one way or another, but that's something to keep in mind. • These cards are trying to do too much. The best legendary creatures are the ones that do one or two game-changing things ( Brion Stoutarm gives you Fling with lifelink on tap, Azami, Lady of Scrolls gives you absurd card draw, Krenko, Mob Boss doubles the size of your army every turn, ). Conversely, your cycle is powerful in a rather dull way - they just have large bodies with a bunch of good keywords and powerful effects stapled on.
As an example, let's take Ivala. Her abilities currently drag her in a bunch of different directions - do you want to swing with her (she could potentially be a 7/7 trampler), or do you want to use her to ramp some more (  : Add is pretty decent)? It kind of distracts from what I think you're trying to do - some kind of a super-druid. So, why not combine some things? I'm going to drop the for now, because it messes with the cleanliness of the card. Ivala, The Blessed Prophet
Legendary Creature - Elf Druid Prophet Hexproof, Trample Tap an untapped Druid you control: Add . At the beginning of each combat, target creature you control gains +2/+2 until the end of turn. If that creature is a Druid, it also gains Trample until the end of turn. 5/5 That still feels a bit unfocused. What if we tried... this? Ivala, The Blessed ProphetLegendary Creature - Elf Druid Prophet Hexproof, Trample Tap an untapped creature you control: Add . If that creature is a Druid, put a +1/+1 counter on it. 5/5 Now that's a bit of threatening board presence I can get behind - get some nice ramp out of your creatures, and your Druids start to slowly grow into big ol' threats. Now, personally, I would go a bit further - I don't really think that she needs to be that personally threatening, since, again, you have her doing double-duty as both ramp and a heavy-hitter. But I'll stop there. I know this is a bit on the rude side, but I couldn't help myself. Sorry.
¹ Like the time when I did some freelance writing and got suckered into also doing editing for no pay, because freelance writers are essentially treated like trash. Read your contracts carefully, kids - people love to hide garbage in there. |
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Post by Tesagk on Jul 23, 2018 11:38:14 GMT
Thanks for the suggestions. I'm working on the changes and will post them later. However, for the moment (imspiritguide): Odalla is tricky. If I make her toughness weaker, it'll be difficult for her to survive to transform. Looking through the gatherer, I found Ayli, Eternal Pilgrim but it being costed 2 and double-colored definitely makes it more difficult than 1 drop. On the other hand, it's a rare and also has abilities other than deathtouch. I could remove her deathtouch, but then she loses a way to transform herself. Thoughts? |
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Post by fluffydeathbringer on Jul 23, 2018 12:12:16 GMT
I could remove her deathtouch, but then she loses a way to transform herself. no? her ability gives kill counters whenever a creature you don't control dies regardless of whether she kills it, and she'd be able to kill creatures in combat without deathtouch pretty well anyway with the proper support
actually, that gives me a suggestion for these legends: keep them at cmc1, keep the potential power, but only be able to access that power with external support. would also work thematically in a "once I was weak and had to rely on others more, but now I've grown strength and agency of my own" way
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Post by Tesagk on Jul 23, 2018 14:23:08 GMT
I could remove her deathtouch, but then she loses a way to transform herself. no? her ability gives kill counters whenever a creature you don't control dies regardless of whether she kills it, and she'd be able to kill creatures in combat without deathtouch pretty well anyway with the proper support
actually, that gives me a suggestion for these legends: keep them at cmc1, keep the potential power, but only be able to access that power with external support. would also work thematically in a "once I was weak and had to rely on others more, but now I've grown strength and agency of my own" way
I actually think that's very fair, will add that to my changes. I like Foretell, but maybe you could word it closer to scry (which has gotten significant wordsmithing since Fifth Dawn)?
I used scry as a template, but I'm open to suggestions. When New Eteras’ Masters enters the battlefield foretell 3 (Look at the bottom three cards of your library. You may put one of them on the top of your library, and the rest back on the bottom in any order.) |
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"When in doubt, do a common." 
