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Post by mrlozano on Oct 15, 2019 20:57:47 GMT
Why is it so hard to find good Dinosaur art?
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Post by arthurxiv on Oct 16, 2019 7:39:04 GMT
spazlaz: In my opinion these are two faces of only one card so i would not allow to mention "Trample". An 8/8 for 3 mana doesn't really need Trample anyway. shiftyhomunculus: So you have the choice between paying 5 mana for a 4/5 or 4 mana for a 4/5 Trample + free Helix ? @niridulian: 10/10 seems a bit strong considering you can play it with this. spazlaz's 8/8 looks terrifying enough already. ^-^
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Post by 2wb on Oct 16, 2019 7:53:53 GMT
Old:
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Post by Lady Mapi on Oct 16, 2019 7:54:08 GMT
Flowering Meadow Basic Land Creature - PlantCenturies after the death of the Verdant King, the meadows still bloomed over his long-buried tomb.0/2No rules-text here, your honor!EDIT: Damn it, 2wb ! You ninja'd me by literal seconds.Izzet Electrofreak Creature - Human Wizard "The secret here is more power ! So give me some!"
- Magister Essen.2/3
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Post by 2wb on Oct 16, 2019 9:21:32 GMT
Flowering Meadow Basic Land Creature - Plant Centuries after the death of the Verdant King, the meadows still bloomed over his long-buried tomb.0/2 No rules-text here, your honor! EDIT: Damn it, 2wb ! You ninja'd me by literal seconds. Hey, you have the word "basic" in your typeline. And that means you're amending the comprules, right? Totally different entries. Specifically; My other ideas were also stolen and I made this card a fair while ago (~48h), though! You can ask CyberChronometer, they were there. But I'll make a new one. I love trying. Vanillas are hard to design well because there's not a whole lot of room for them, I feel. That said, I'm in love with, well, basically all of these. -How big can MM be? -Did you notice the trick? -PhyMana, but without the Bad! -How big can MN be? -The old days of Legends creatures! -Double riffing off of cool cards! -/The/ mythic vanilla! -{M}{M/N}{N}! -0 drop! -0 toughness! -Twobrid! -Altcosts! -Transformer! -Revolutionary costing! -Altcosts again! -Small true colorless / diamond mana beast! -Flavor first! -A pushed powerhouse! -A reference and refreshingly direct approach! -An ability that isn't an ability! -A cool mechanic... from another game! -A cutesy little cheat! -Absolute ridiculousness! -Land creature! But all of these really emphasize, to me, the issue with doing a vanilla design contest. They require something interesting (otherwise it's not a design contest). A lot of these cards are interesting only in a specific context.
To be... uncharitable; there's a few broad categories that a lot of these fall in.
-Something that shouldn't be a thing. -Something that's comedic and likely in-joke. -Two different cards at the same time. -Things that claim to not have abilities but do. -I think it's called the "Lion's Eye Diamond" quotient. Cards that are "cute" or tickle towards a specific design.
But these things are, in small part, all going to run into the same sort of... It's interesting once. And only once. They fall apart quickly.
I want to give specific statements but I can't make them not read as bashing due to my current failures in coming up with words; so forgive me for this.
Land creatures are bad things for gameplay. Pipsqueak said it better, so:
This... makes the basic idea of a land creature (in certain formats) very untenable. Which isn't great.
And something like that applies to... everything. They tickle us as designers, they've got some bizarre quirky thing that makes them not actually be vanilla creatures.
R/W Savannah Lions is rad. But it's also not anything new. Alpha Myr + Savannah Lions is a card.
Funky mana costs are neat, but M M/N N just says "play this in an MN deck" and nothing else. True colorless small things are interesting mostly because they don't exist. They tickle us with their fantastical nature. The 'fractured' mana is an ability. The pitch card ability. Just as a mana symbol. The Tap-White is... basically Improvise-Convoke. DFC with no transform ability is, again, something that tickles the designer and is really sucky to read as a player. It's an A+B card and those are well known for being disliked. "Spend at least three different colors of mana to cast ~" is definitely an ability.
I want to iterate; these aren't insults to the cards (because I do, sincerely think these cards are all very cool).
It's just that -- tl;dr I think a contest around designing... basically, a total lack of design, is interesting but inappropriate for a contest centered around " the best cards [we] can" make. And it results in us doing... whatever these cards are. Are these the best cards we can make? ...I apologize if this steps over lines. I don't have a super good grasp over what language this post needs and which parts of it are insensitive or inciting.
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Post by arthurxiv on Oct 16, 2019 10:23:21 GMT
Lol this contest made MSEers so angery. I think i will modify my list of challenges for if i win one day because it surely will make you way more angery as it is right now.
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Post by Tesagk on Oct 16, 2019 12:09:55 GMT
Lol this contest made MSEers so angery. I think i will modify my list of challenges for if i win one day because it surely will make you way more angery as it is right now. Angry? No. Disappointed? Sure. But I'm not exactly understanding why you would want to intentionally troll the community.
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Post by arthurxiv on Oct 16, 2019 12:59:00 GMT
Tesagk: No it's not about trolling. I just planned challenges that would ask you to focus on stuff that's usually not so important to MSE users. The problem is that now i notice that it would push us to create cards that will probably never be played (or are just not playable at all). Today i see that designing cards that will never be played is a major frustration for everyone so i'll just avoid asking for this if i have to propose a challenge. (For example one of my ideas was "Design any card but intentionally make its rule text as badly worded as possible. It must still be understandable by a beginner player and its properties (effects, targets, etc) must not be ambiguous.". I just blinded myself into thinking that anyone would be happy to participate into any challenge regardless if it's pointless or not.)
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Post by Tesagk on Oct 16, 2019 14:35:11 GMT
Tesagk : No it's not about trolling. I just planned challenges that would ask you to focus on stuff that's usually not so important to MSE users. The problem is that now i notice that it would push us to create cards that will probably never be played (or are just not playable at all). Today i see that designing cards that will never be played is a major frustration for everyone so i'll just avoid asking for this if i have to propose a challenge. (For example one of my ideas was "Design any card but intentionally make its rule text as badly worded as possible. It must still be understandable by a beginner player and its properties (effects, targets, etc) must not be ambiguous.". I just blinded myself into thinking that anyone would be happy to participate into any challenge regardless if it's pointless or not.) My puppy is playable! 😝
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Post by Lady Mapi on Oct 16, 2019 14:36:20 GMT
2wb Dang it, I should have put a next to it. I was mostly just pointing out the hilariously close timing on our posts. I'm actually thinking of replacing my entry because, as you point out, I would need to rewrite the comp rules (and because it's stupid broken.) arthurxiv The thing about contests like this one is that they basically design your card for you unless you try to cheat the rules. There really is only so much design space for vanillas - scratch that, there's only so much interesting design space for vanillas. Vanilla cards are deck filler. Basically, if we were playing strictly by the rules, there'd be something like three submissions and then everyone would lose interest. It's like going to a cooking competition and being told that they want you to make dry toast. Much like actual card design, contest design demands a minimum of 'oh, I'm so very clever!' prompts¹. And "make me a vanilla" is very much an "I'm so clever!" prompt. ¹ Unlike some people around here, I think 'oh, I'm so clever!' cards have their place. The real issue is that we're all dumber than we think we are. The one part of NWO that I fully agree with is that board states should be as transparent as possible. And, honestly? In most cases, card designs are as clear as mud. And 'clever' designs tend to be even worse.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 16, 2019 14:51:07 GMT
spazlaz : In my opinion these are two faces of only one card so i would not allow to mention "Trample". An 8/8 for 3 mana doesn't really need Trample anyway. shiftyhomunculus : So you have the choice between paying 5 mana for a 4/5 or 4 mana for a 4/5 Trample + free Helix ? @niridulian : 10/10 seems a bit strong considering you can play it with this. spazlaz's 8/8 looks terrifying enough already. ^-^ Shoot, good catch arthurxiv! I didn't remember the rule 202.3a. I'll have to find another idea. P.S: I absolutely love your entry.
Also, I didn't expect my challenge to cause ruckus hahaha, I only wanted to read some cool flavor text, that's all!
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Post by Lady Mapi on Oct 16, 2019 15:06:21 GMT
Also, I didn't expect my challenge to cause ruckus hahaha, I only wanted to read some cool flavor text, that's all! One thing you have to realize: most of the people here don't like writing flavortext .
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Post by burntsquirrelman on Oct 16, 2019 15:45:53 GMT
Gonna chime in with my two cents, but I think this challenge is probably more like what it would be to design cards for WotC and MtG than any other challenge I have seen. Now, I'm not saying that that is a good thing or a bad thing, but it requires the card maker to put some serious thought into how they could make a simple card with minimal to no effects still be iconic and even something someone would want to play with. It is an extremely difficult challenge, but that is most likely because it is forcing a lot of the MSE crew to look at the card design from an angle that they never attempt. MSE is for all those people who want to make something weird and new, stuff that has the potential to actually be printed but also likely to never see the light of day. This challenge is counter to all of what draws people to MSE in the first place. That makes this challenge very difficult, but, again, neither good nor bad.
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Post by Aarhg on Oct 16, 2019 16:02:40 GMT
Also, I didn't expect my challenge to cause ruckus hahaha, I only wanted to read some cool flavor text, that's all! One thing you have to realize: most of the people here don't like writing flavortext . Hmm, that’s interesting. I personally find enjoyment in writing flavor text when the text box has room and need for it. Flavor is a huge part of card design, so writing decent flavor text can be really quite important. I know it can be difficult (at least for me), but it shouldn’t be discounted. burntsquirrelman Yea, I’m with ya.
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Post by Neottolemo on Oct 16, 2019 17:48:32 GMT
One thing you have to realize: most of the people here don't like writing flavortext . Hmm, that’s interesting. I personally find enjoyment in writing flavor text when the text box has room and need for it. Flavor is a huge part of card design, so writing decent flavor text can be really quite important. I know it can be difficult (at least for me), but it shouldn’t be discounted. burntsquirrelman Yea, I’m with ya. I mean... Top down design, where you start from flavour concept and work out mechanics that fit it, is a design thing. However, we're being asked to write filler flavour text (and optionally pick art) for something that's not a top down design because we already know it has to be vanilla, and as such has had its mechanics pre-established. As far as I can tell, that's not something the design team has to do, that's something for the creative team. So, it doesn't really feel like a card design challenge.
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Post by Daij_Djan on Oct 16, 2019 18:03:01 GMT
Seeing as this challenge is (as expected) quite controversial and has sparked a quite civil discussion (which I'm really glad for, btw – I love this community ) over these past few days, I decided to also give my two cents and kind of give a behind the curtains view of my thought process on this as well as other challenges. As most of you probably know, I normally send around the PMs asking for the new challenges every Sunday to the current leader(s) as well as runner-up(s) in the active poll (there are some exceptions when one user is clearly in the lead by a landslide and sends me a message first as they won't be available over the weekend or something). On Monday the current challenge and poll are closed and the new challenge gets set up – which first means „cleaning up“ the challenge a bit. In most cases this just means adding some links and references (like I here added the link to the official vanilla definition) or cleaning up some wording, sometimes I add or remove some minor restrictions or additions to the challenge (most obvious example would be when a challenge repeats itself I add the restriction to not reuse an older entry from its previous iteration(s)) – and sometimes I do indeed flat out reject a challenge. Please keep in mind this happens only very frequently (I can only remember on such challenge, but I'm pretty sure there was a second one I rejected but just cannot remember right now) and if possible (a.k.a. unless I read the challenge only right before setting everything up) I try to contact the user and ask for a replacement – and also and obviously, my own personal taste is not a factor for rejecting a challenge or not (I did mention a few times in the past when I didn't like a specific challenge) . So now, to be completely honest (as I already told @niridulian when I sent my normal „congratz“ after they had indeed won last week's poll) this was indeed a challenge I did ponder about potentially rejecting at first for the reasons already mentioned by some. It's obviously very different from our normal challenges, and the design space for vanillas is (obviously) limited. Still I decided to not reject this challenge after all because: - Vanillas can be fun and interesting. We have had two vanilla CotW winners I can think of and cards like Infinity Elemental (to a minor degree) or Yargle, Glutton of Urborg (to a much bigger degree) have made quite the stirr in the MtG community as a whole.
- There are some ways to tackle this challenge „normally“ be using interesting stats, cool flavor, or meme entries..
- ..yet you can kind of „cheat“ the system instead by playing with unique mana types, land creatures (Dryad Arbor is a vanilla as well after all), or similar.
So while I totally agree this challenge being very different, completely understand why some dislike it, and definitely agree challenges like this shouldn't become the norm in the future, I think it is a very unique challenge to have for once – so I greenlit it and don't in fact regret doing so There are some quite nice entries out here already and we frankly have had challenges with a much smaller turnout in the past. PS: I hope you don't mind me pointing you out arthurxiv, but this might be a good example to finsh things off: For example one of my ideas was "Design any card but intentionally make its rule text as badly worded as possible. It must still be understandable by a beginner player and its properties (effects, targets, etc) must not be ambiguous.". This for example is a challenge I would indeed have rejected as it's point is basically to „design any card and be bad at the wording“ – whereas the goal of these challenges in the end always is supposed to be ending up with cards that WotC might/could print in some way. The card might only work in an Un-Set or even only work as a gimmik promo, but still. Hope you all don't mind my little ramblings (and some of you might even find it interesting?) – this text kind of ended up being much longer than originally planned
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Post by Tesagk on Oct 16, 2019 20:52:41 GMT
and we frankly have had challenges with a much smaller turnout in the past. Ow.
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Post by augur on Oct 17, 2019 3:09:01 GMT
"Marcus Engstrom here. At Engstrom Biotics, we strive for nothing but the best. And as we all know, the bigger the better. That's our new motto, by the way- 'The bigger the better.' PR told me to pick something about quality and slash or excellence, but what do they know about running a company? Anyways, I know what you're all here to see: deadly monsters. Big ones."
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Post by arthurxiv on Oct 17, 2019 8:14:55 GMT
The goal of these challenges in the end always is supposed to be ending up with cards that WotC might/could print in some way. Yes i completely forgot about that part.
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Post by arthurxiv on Oct 17, 2019 8:33:03 GMT
Another possibility for this challenge would have been to make Universal Automaton but without the Changeling ability and adding each type manually in the type bar. Roll Safe Think About It
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Post by Deleted on Oct 17, 2019 19:28:24 GMT
When I proposed this challenge to Daij, this was the kind of card entry I had in mind: P/T, name, flavor text and that's it. Sure, the ways certain entries in this thread try to spice up an otherwise unremarkable(mechanically speaking) card with alternative manacosts and whatnots are interesting/creative, but I feel like that one could have been more entertained by this challenge by approaching it with a different point of view. What I mean is, if you look at "design a vanilla creature card" with a, let's say, Johnny-esque perspective, more focused on the gameplay mechanics than the flavor, of course you're gonna be bored since a vanilla creature, as I said, is mechanically unremarkable. However, if you approached it with a Vorthosian perspective, more focused on the flavor than the mechanics, I'm sure you would have fun trying to make your card "tell a story" using only flavor text and an image. Yes, as others in this thread said, this is indeed a challenge that requires to be looked at in a certain way to be enjoyed.
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Post by voltaic-qui on Oct 18, 2019 3:53:22 GMT
Quite possibly my least favorite challenge, save for maybe any silver-border only challenges. But it's what we got, so.... You should have been there when I came up with the challenge to only use one-syllable words on your card design, woof! People died that day.
That aside, I think it's fine to have these more restrictive challenges once in a while. I wouldn't want them coming up too often, but they force you to change the way you go about designing your card, which is interesting.
Right, I remember that challenge. (I won it!) But I think the current challenge is currently a subset - and the least interesting subset - of most challenges. Every entry in this challenge would work for your challenge, or the "ten words or less" challenge... et cetera.
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Giraculum
0/0 Germ
Posts: 34
Color Alignment: Blue, Green
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Post by Giraculum on Oct 18, 2019 21:19:53 GMT
I do like this prompt, and am okay with using it for the CotW contest, but I also recognize how it doesn't quite prioritize well-designed vanillas. It's true on some level for every CotW, really: the ideal question we're answering is "how can I design the best card?", but the de facto one is "how can I stand out?". This prompt has formed a bigger wedge between the two than usual, since vanillas are just not that flashy at their core. Limitations breed creativity, though, so I think it's worth exploring even if this week is bumpy or falls flat.
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Post by sdfkjgh on Oct 18, 2019 21:27:27 GMT
This reminds me of the end of Boatmurdered.
Also, if you wanted flavor text, you should've specified that all entries MUST have it. For contests like this, if you were looking for a specific thing, you should always demand that exact thing; don't be cute by tracing its outline with other parameters. If I was designing this specific challenge, I would've started by including existing examples, like Enormous Baloth, Novellamental, &/or some wall of flavor text from Legends, then set the challenge to be "Design a vanilla creature with a wall of flavor text."
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kinotherapy
6/6 Wurm
stupid kor i just fell out of the floor
Posts: 322
Favorite Card: Ruthless Raider
Favorite Set: Rising Tides
Color Alignment: Blue, Black, Red
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Post by kinotherapy on Oct 18, 2019 21:51:11 GMT
I do like this prompt, and am okay with using it for the CotW contest, but I also recognize how it doesn't quite prioritize well-designed vanillas. It's true on some level for every CotW, really: the ideal question we're answering is "how can I design the best card?",but the de facto one is "how can I stand out?". This prompt has formed a bigger wedge between the two than usual, since vanillas are just not that flashy at their core. Limitations breed creativity, though, so I think it's worth exploring even if this week is bumpy or falls flat. Pretty much my thoughts on this one. I certainly appreciate the skill required to design flavourful and balanced vanilla commons, particularly when supported by flavour text, but I would be pleasantly surprised if any of them actually won the vote.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 19, 2019 11:39:50 GMT
This reminds me of the end of Boatmurdered.
Also, if you wanted flavor text, you should've specified that all entries MUST have it. For contests like this, if you were looking for a specific thing, you should always demand that exact thing; don't be cute by tracing its outline with other parameters. If I was designing this specific challenge, I would've started by including existing examples, like Enormous Baloth, Novellamental, &/or some wall of flavor text from Legends, then set the challenge to be "Design a vanilla creature with a wall of flavor text."
Yeah, you're right, I should have been more specific. I'll be more careful with the wording next time.
Ooh, Boatmurdered was quite the saga, the damned fortress with the flaming dwarves was incredible.
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Post by FLAREdirector on Oct 19, 2019 21:07:36 GMT
I figure, if there's no rules text, then you have to make your card interesting in one of the following places instead:
1. Flavor text
2. Mana cost 3. Power/toughness 4. Type line
I noticed there weren't a lot of entries that touched on that last element, so here's my entry:
ETA: Those aren't wings in the art. I don't know what those are, but they're not wings.
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Fermat
8/8 Octopus
Posts: 436
Favorite Card: Force of Will
Favorite Set: Guildpact (set when I started playing)
Color Alignment: White, Blue, Black
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Post by Fermat on Oct 20, 2019 5:59:38 GMT
Alseid Steppe Land Creature — Plains Nymph 1/1
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Post by Boogymanjunior on Oct 20, 2019 19:38:05 GMT
I like this challenge and think there is more to designing cards than just effects (even though it is the most important part- yup, this challenge is... interesting^^) EDIT: Holy shiddle, after reading page 2... a cool mixture of many good points. Seems like that at the barest minimum, this challenge produced conversation, a part of design normally belonging only to WotC.
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Post by Daij_Djan on Oct 21, 2019 13:27:25 GMT
This thread is now closed, the poll can be found here. And here's the next challenge!
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