inferno390
3/3 Beast
Posts: 197
Favorite Card: Kwende, Pride of Femeref
Favorite Set: Dominaria
Color Alignment: White, Red
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Post by inferno390 on Jul 26, 2019 23:29:02 GMT
So I started working on a set recently called Rise of Daetheneil (RDH), and I've got a full set of commons mechanically written out. However, I'm in need of names and flavor for the cards, as well as tweaking--I feel like some of the cards might be better suited for uncommon, and some might need a a couple of knobs touched on so they're reasonable cards. (Do want to make clear that this is supposed to be at least a slightly higher-powered Limited environment.) Also, I feel like some of the keywords might need another pair of eyes. Here is the post I made introducing the set in the Starting Projects thread, but for the sake of accessibility, I'm going to copy the most important mechanical parts here and re-paste in the commons list. Keywords of the Set:Bushido X: Whenever this creature blocks or becomes blocked, it gets +X/+X until end of turn. Knackcast: Reveal the top card of your library. You may cast it if it is an instant or sorcery spell. If you don’t, put it on the bottom of your library and create a Rune token. Analyze: Whenever you sacrifice a Rune token for the first time each turn, (effect)Untamed <cost>: You may pay <cost> and either discard a land card or sacrifice a land instead of paying this card’s mana cost. Rune Tokens: An artifact rune token with: "  , sacrifice this token: Add 1 mana of any color to your mana pool. Spend this mana only to cast instant or sorcery spells." Referenced on a number of cards in the set. Runic: You may sacrifice Rune tokens to pay for this spell. Each Rune token you sacrifice in this way counts for [1]. Colors of Keywords:Bushido:   Knackcast:   Analyze:  Untamed: Runic: Attachment DeletedSo my current thoughts so far: I feel like CB08 might be better at uncommon level rather than common, but the power does not seem that strong. Someone has commented on Runic and Runes not being great, and I want to make sure that flavorwise and mechanicalwise they make sense and play alright wit the cards in the set. Analyze might be a little too strong? If it is is there a way to fix it? Thoughts? Questions? Comments? Concerns? |
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Post by Jéské Couriano on Jul 27, 2019 18:15:02 GMT
Bushido ) Replace the name. The main reason why Wizards has not brought back Bushido themselves yet (despite it being a solid mechanic that would work in virtually any set) is because the ability's name is flavourfully very Japanese. (In fact, a renamed Bushido is far lower on the Storm Scale than Bushido as-is, 4 vs. 8.)
Knackcast ) This seems fine, but would work stupid good with topdeck tutors. This also needs to be an action keyword (which places the RT at the end of the paragraph it appears in).
Analyse ) This is fine.
Untamed ) I see this behaving more like Retrace in that it'll be used to help replace dead land draws later in the game. Early in the game, however, not so much.
Runic ) Since rune tokens sac to provide mana anyways, this is practically redundant save for corner cases where they all get tapped.
CB08 ) There's actually a good case to be made here either way. Nyx Infusion implies this could be feasible at common, but if rune tokens are going to be very common to the point they're replacing your mana base, Stab Wound might suggest uncommon.
CW12 ) Out-of-colour ( ). White only forces sacs on attacking/blocking creatures. While a case can be made for sacrificing tapped as white does get to kill tapped, white is not the colour to do this outside of a retaliation context (which precludes a Sorcery speed).
CU10 ) "[...]it's owner's hand." -> "[...]its owner's hand."
CB03 ) Abilities that function as alternate casting modes are always placed on a new line in the text box, for ease of readability.
CB07 ) The deathtouch, I feel, pushes this up to  .
CB12 ) The spell's ability needs to be on a new line.
CG06 ) Outside of cycles or multicolour (or when a block pushes them, kofftarkirkoff) green generally doesn't get dragons. They get wurms instead, which are practically landlocked dragons for all intents and purposes. CG08 has the same issue.
CG11 ) This strikes me as a chicken-or-the-egg card. While useful for mana-fixing, its requiring a land card in hand makes it undesireable for the role, since the time when you ideally would be casting this (early game) is when you're trying to establish your mana base.
CA02 ) Runic is functionally redundant here.
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inferno390
3/3 Beast
Posts: 197
Favorite Card: Kwende, Pride of Femeref
Favorite Set: Dominaria
Color Alignment: White, Red
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Post by inferno390 on Jul 27, 2019 23:39:12 GMT
Bushido ) Replace the name. The main reason why Wizards has not brought back Bushido themselves yet (despite it being a solid mechanic that would work in virtually any set) is because the ability's name is flavourfully very Japanese. (In fact, a renamed Bushido is far lower on the Storm Scale than Bushido as-is, 4 vs. 8.)
Knackcast ) This seems fine, but would work stupid good with topdeck tutors. This also needs to be an action keyword (which places the RT at the end of the paragraph it appears in).
Analyse ) This is fine.
Untamed ) I see this behaving more like Retrace in that it'll be used to help replace dead land draws later in the game. Early in the game, however, not so much.
Runic ) Since rune tokens sac to provide mana anyways, this is practically redundant save for corner cases where they all get tapped.
CB08 ) There's actually a good case to be made here either way. Nyx Infusion implies this could be feasible at common, but if rune tokens are going to be very common to the point they're replacing your mana base, Stab Wound might suggest uncommon.
CW12 ) Out-of-colour ( ). White only forces sacs on attacking/blocking creatures. While a case can be made for sacrificing tapped as white does get to kill tapped, white is not the colour to do this outside of a retaliation context (which precludes a Sorcery speed).
CU10 ) "[...]it's owner's hand." -> "[...]its owner's hand."
CB03 ) Abilities that function as alternate casting modes are always placed on a new line in the text box, for ease of readability.
CB07 ) The deathtouch, I feel, pushes this up to .
CB12 ) The spell's ability needs to be on a new line.
CG06 ) Outside of cycles or multicolour (or when a block pushes them, kofftarkirkoff) green generally doesn't get dragons. They get wurms instead, which are practically landlocked dragons for all intents and purposes. CG08 has the same issue.
CG11 ) This strikes me as a chicken-or-the-egg card. While useful for mana-fixing, its requiring a land card in hand makes it undesireable for the role, since the time when you ideally would be casting this (early game) is when you're trying to establish your mana base.
CA02 ) Runic is functionally redundant here.
So I'm gonna ask a few questions here regarding a few things: Bushido: Funnily enough, this was originally called Bastion, and it did -X/+X instead. I ended up changing it to Bushido because it seemed functionally simpler and better and filled a similar role. How much of a change would it be to switch back to this mechanic in terms of overall flavor? I know there will have to be a few adjusted cards, but overall would it work? Or should I just stick with a renamed Bushido? Runic: Want to make clear that this effect lands specifically on permanents only. Runes only sac for mana for instants and sorceries. Also ties to CA02. Not sure if you missed that or not, but I'm probably going to start phasing out Runic anyways unless you think otherwise? CB07: I would prefer that the tokens keep deathtouch, so is there a better way to keep this at common other than removing it? Or should i just push it to uncommon? CG06/CG08: I Was intending on pushing dragons in this set since there are the Dragonborne. Do more cards need to be dragons to make that work? Changes: CB08 is pushed to uncommon. CW08 now costs  . CW12 went from "Target opponent sacrifices a tapped creature" to just "destroy tapped creature." Fixed issues on CU10, CB03, and CB12. Gonna think about how to fix CG11 and keep the untamed flavor. Thanks a ton for the feedback! I feel very comfortable with the new mechanics moving forward, and I just started work on uncommons for white and blue, so your timing was perfect! |
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Post by Jéské Couriano on Jul 28, 2019 1:31:10 GMT
In re Bushido/Bastion ) Either would be good - though I think renaming Bushido is probably your best bet. Like I said, the main thing precluding a Bushido return is the name; the mechanic itself is rock-solid.
Runic ) In all honesty, I did miss it. I'm still entirely unsure it should be a thing; I would look at possible cost-reduction effects instead of producing mana, since as the way the limited meta is set up liberally creating runes is all but required for late game with the land destruction. This means that the early and mid game will inevitably be set up around nuking lands and rune generation in order to starve out the opponent. I should note that neither the Eldrazi Spawn/Scions or the Treasure tokens were present alongside large amounts of land destruction in their respective metas - in fact, they were in blocks which encouraged playing lands first and foremost.
CB07 ) Drop them to 1/1s.
Dragons ) The big issue here with dragons and pushing them is that, as a tribe, dragons trend towards higher CMCs. Even in Fate Reforged and Dragons of Tarkir the cheapest dragon available was 4CMC ( Thunderbreak Regent) and the overwhelming majority of them averaged 5-6 CMC. And this is an environment that pushed them. This doesn't seem to me to be a tribe you'd want to push in an environment where the mana base is going to be suspect.
Wurms aren't much better. Taken as a whole and omitting the obvious outliers ( Serpentine, Water Wurm, Autochthon Wurm) they average out to a CMC of 5.6, about the same as Tarkir dragons. |
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inferno390
3/3 Beast
Posts: 197
Favorite Card: Kwende, Pride of Femeref
Favorite Set: Dominaria
Color Alignment: White, Red
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Post by inferno390 on Jul 28, 2019 2:35:10 GMT
In re Bushido/Bastion ) Either would be good - though I think renaming Bushido is probably your best bet. Like I said, the main thing precluding a Bushido return is the name; the mechanic itself is rock-solid.
Runic ) In all honesty, I did miss it. I'm still entirely unsure it should be a thing; I would look at possible cost-reduction effects instead of producing mana, since as the way the limited meta is set up liberally creating runes is all but required for late game with the land destruction. This means that the early and mid game will inevitably be set up around nuking lands and rune generation in order to starve out the opponent. I should note that neither the Eldrazi Spawn/Scions or the Treasure tokens were present alongside large amounts of land destruction in their respective metas - in fact, they were in blocks which encouraged playing lands first and foremost.
CB07 ) Drop them to 1/1s.
Dragons ) The big issue here with dragons and pushing them is that, as a tribe, dragons trend towards higher CMCs. Even in Fate Reforged and Dragons of Tarkir the cheapest dragon available was 4CMC ( Thunderbreak Regent) and the overwhelming majority of them averaged 5-6 CMC. And this is an environment that pushed them. This doesn't seem to me to be a tribe you'd want to push in an environment where the mana base is going to be suspect.
Wurms aren't much better. Taken as a whole and omitting the obvious outliers ( Serpentine, Water Wurm, Autochthon Wurm) they average out to a CMC of 5.6, about the same as Tarkir dragons. Bushido has been renamed to Bastion. CB07 is fixed per above. Both Dragons are now Wurms/Beasts. I'll probably hold off pushing dragons until a later set (if there is one) and leave where they belong for now. CB08 is now:  : Target player discards a card and loses 2 life. (Sorcery) So for Runic, I'm trying to picture the limited format the way you are describing it, and I'm having a little trouble. However, I do understand your point; With Untamed, the early plays will be to get out your cards using the alt cost, and then to make it to the end game you would need the Rune Tokens. So I'm not sure what to do with it here. I feel like alone the mechanic feels good. But with untamed it can create this awkward scenario in the Jund colors. Will it be such a big problem considering you would still need the lands to build a board presence in most scenarios? Maybe. I couldn't really say. The solution might just be don't allow sacrificing lands with Untamed, but I still don't see how that would help. Maybe the Runes themselves could use a tweak so they give colorless only and you still need the colored mana. But I think at this point scraping the tokens themselves will undermine the whole set because basically everything else beyond Bastion uses Rune tokens. Maybe Untamed itself is the problem and I need a different mechanic in Jund. I'm not sure. Gonna give this some thought. |
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Post by Jéské Couriano on Jul 28, 2019 3:20:06 GMT
So for Runic, I'm trying to picture the limited format the way you are describing it, and I'm having a little trouble. However, I do understand your point; With Untamed, the early plays will be to get out your cards using the alt cost, and then to make it to the end game you would need the Rune Tokens. So I'm not sure what to do with it here. I feel like alone the mechanic feels good. But with untamed it can create this awkward scenario in the Jund colors. Will it be such a big problem considering you would still need the lands to build a board presence in most scenarios? Maybe. I couldn't really say. The solution might just be don't allow sacrificing lands with Untamed, but I still don't see how that would help. Maybe the Runes themselves could use a tweak so they give colorless only and you still need the colored mana. But I think at this point scraping the tokens themselves will undermine the whole set because basically everything else beyond Bastion uses Rune tokens. Maybe Untamed itself is the problem and I need a different mechanic in Jund. I'm not sure. Gonna give this some thought. Another option would be to make it so that you sacrifice a Rune to give it a permanent benefit, such as +1/+1 counters or a keyword ability. Or sac a rune for Flash. |
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inferno390
3/3 Beast
Posts: 197
Favorite Card: Kwende, Pride of Femeref
Favorite Set: Dominaria
Color Alignment: White, Red
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Post by inferno390 on Jul 28, 2019 4:23:12 GMT
That’s actually a really good idea.
so building on that, I went in and changed Untamed so it’s sort of like kicker, except the cost is always to sacrifice a Rune token. I’ll repost the commons tomorrow so you can see what the set looks like now. There will probably be a few colors of uncommons in the mix too.
Storing away Untamed v1.0 for a later set. Sad to see it go, but hopefully this will halo the overall balance of the set in limited and tie Jund into the set flavor a little better.
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inferno390
3/3 Beast
Posts: 197
Favorite Card: Kwende, Pride of Femeref
Favorite Set: Dominaria
Color Alignment: White, Red
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Post by inferno390 on Jul 28, 2019 22:05:14 GMT
So here's the updated list with a few card tweaks and some uncommons. Most noticably, Untamed now reads "Untamed X (You may sacrifice X Rune tokens in addition to paying any other costs.)", and modified some cards that cared about lands in the graveyard as their effects are obsolete now. Uncommons are in blue, white, some black, and a couple of gold. Feedback balance wise? Ideas for card names? How is Untamed reading against the overall flavor of the set, and how are the Rune tokens overall? Attachment Deleted |
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Post by Jéské Couriano on Jul 29, 2019 19:08:58 GMT
Untamed is definitely a lot better.
Gimme time to look over the spoiler thus far. (As far as naming goes, I take the view that names should generally be tied to whatever lore you have for the setting.)
UU06 ) "[...]target instant from[...]" -> "[...]target instant card from[...]" If it's not in the stack or on the battlefield, it's a <type> card.
UB04 ) Up the cost to .
UZ01 ) Because this is a permanent that first ability will not work as written. There needs to be a trigger or activation associated with it (and from context, it's most certainly a trigger).
UW04 ) "Blocking creatures you control can't be the target of spells or abilities your opponents control." -> "Blocking creatures you control have hexproof."
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inferno390
3/3 Beast
Posts: 197
Favorite Card: Kwende, Pride of Femeref
Favorite Set: Dominaria
Color Alignment: White, Red
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Post by inferno390 on Jul 30, 2019 23:48:40 GMT
All of the above have been implemented, and I have finished the Gold, Green, and Red uncommons and created a cycle of rares for the set! I'm also debating removing Runic because there seem to be very few cards using it. Thoughts? Attachment Deleted |
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