jverse
3/3 Beast
Posts: 195
Favorite Card: Animar, Soul of Elements
Favorite Set: Shadowmoor
Color Alignment: Blue, Red, Green
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Post by jverse on Apr 23, 2019 23:40:44 GMT
I'm working on a new set and need a bit of help brainstorming some ideas for my mechanics to work. I'm carrying some over from a previous set and I'm happy with those, but these two have me stumped on how best to implement them.
Right now I have:
Expel (If you would discard this card, you may choose to exile it instead.)
I imagine this being sort of like having a choice between executing someone and banishing them instead, although I will probably put Expel on non-creatures as well. I'm quite flexible on this one as it's giving me the most trouble.
Redeem (You may cast this spell from exile. If you do, it enters the battlefield with an additional +1/+1 counter on it.)
For this mechanic, my goal to is to create the flavor of a disgraced or banished warrior who suddenly and heroically returns to battle. I'm pretty happy with this mechanic so far, but the issue is trying to get it into exile in the first place.
Unless I can reliably exile a card with Redeem, it's almost always just a vanilla creature with an ability that can't be used. Both mechanics want to be on the same card in order for it to work really well (discards are a big theme in my set as well, at least in the colors where it's relevant). I've put plenty of exile interaction into my set, but it's mostly random so far (exile the top X cards of your library, exile all creatures, etc.).
I'm looking for some ideas of how to alter Expel in order to allow me to exile a card from my hand for some sort of effect or benefit. That way I can leave Redeem alone and not have to combine both mechanics on the same card. Thoughts?
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Post by Jéské Couriano on Apr 24, 2019 4:13:07 GMT
In re Expel ) I don't see this as seeing much use.
In re Redeem ) The problem with this is that, as far as Wizards is concerned, cast-from-exile without any restrictions is  in and of itself. ( Misthollow Griffin is precedent) This is because Wizards is very afraid of turning exile into a discount graveyard zone, which is why there are very few cards that interact with cards in exile that those cards did not put there in the first place. For what it's worth, that's the biggest stumbling block here - your abilities in conjunction trivialise the exile zone far too much.
Expel/Redeem faces much the same issues: Neither ability works well without the other feeding it (or otherwise a flood of exile effects in the set to feed Redeem), the crunch on Redeem is iffy at best, the crunch on Expel is parasitic, and I'm doubtful there's enough design space here for there to be a worthwhile payoff, considering the aforementioned set space issues.
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jverse
3/3 Beast
Posts: 195
Favorite Card: Animar, Soul of Elements
Favorite Set: Shadowmoor
Color Alignment: Blue, Red, Green
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Post by jverse on Apr 25, 2019 0:15:14 GMT
That's what I was afraid of. I know WotC is against too much exile interaction but it made a lot of thematic sense within my set and wanted to know if I could make it work without it being too busted.
I might try a flicker effect instead, but then again, I may end up just scrapping the whole thing and starting over with something else.
Thanks for your input.
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Post by ameisenmeister on Apr 25, 2019 12:42:04 GMT
Why would anyone choose to exile a card instead of just discarding it? (Other than to interact with Redeem, of course.)
As for Redeem: Am I right to assume that your creatures can always return from exile? For instance, when your opponent casted Anguished Unmaking on your creature. This would be too much messing around with the exile zone for my taste. Many players complained (and are still complaining) that the exile zone should be a gone-forever-zone and should be left alone. You can, of course, design this mechanic and use it in your set, but if your standard is designing mechanics that could be in a real magic set, you should consider changing it.
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jverse
3/3 Beast
Posts: 195
Favorite Card: Animar, Soul of Elements
Favorite Set: Shadowmoor
Color Alignment: Blue, Red, Green
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Post by jverse on Apr 26, 2019 3:51:08 GMT
I understand the reasoning for leaving exile alone, which I mostly agree with. I'm still playing around with a way to bring back creatures without having them exiled at all, but if I can't come up with anything I won't force it. I don't want them to return from the graveyard as I don't want some kind of zombie sub-theme. There are a lot of multicolored cards in my set so I'm exploring something along with that too. Lots to consider, but yes, I want my set to be as close a real playable one as possible.
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Post by uaiop on Apr 28, 2019 23:45:04 GMT
i like those
expecially redeem and all the flavour
check my thread even if it is black oriented but i generally like the exile stuff (graveyard is a bit boring ahah) did a few really heavy that upset the gameplay and use massive exile zone
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Post by ameisenmeister on Apr 29, 2019 6:58:34 GMT
I have a suggestion that might seem a bit far stretched but could eventually work better than the exile zone. How about you use the bottom of your library? Considering flavor, there is no place farer away from play than the bottom of one's library and mechanically, you could design recruiter/aidcaller cards or whatever flavorful name you come up with that reveal the bottom card of your library and put it onto the battlefield or in your hand if it meets certain conditions.
Some example cards here:
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Post by Jéské Couriano on Apr 29, 2019 23:50:15 GMT
Arisenmeister ) This could work, but it's more time-consuming to pull a card off the bottom of a deck. Otherwise, it's perfectly fine.
The biggest issue here is still going to be the A/B design.
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Post by Idea on May 4, 2019 17:40:54 GMT
Well, I'm no expert, but I think if it's for one set interacting with exile might work. Now, I don't think this exile interaction should be universal, but I do think you can have some leeway. For that purpose, I recommend doing two things:
1. Remove the "expel" mechanic entirely, and instead just have cards in your set that involve exiling cards from your hand, maybe as a cost or the like, or a bigger percentage of exile removal than a typical set. This is not only easier to do since it doesn't involve getting a whole new mechanic, it also allows you to not have a mechanic that is useless outside of the context of this set, making it more rewarding to play with.
2. Add a "removal with counters" feature to your "redeem" mechanic. In the time spiral set there were cards with a mechanic called suspend, which for a cost made them exile themselves with time counters and return to the battlefield after those counters were removed each turn (which was cheaper than actually playing the card usually). You could do something similar, which instead of sending them into exile directly, uses some trigger that puts the counter on them, and you can play the card so long as the counter is there. This would make the mechanic a bit more complex, but it would allow it to work on it's own, while also preventing the continual recursion problem.
Example: redeem (mana cost)- When this card would be sent to your graveyard without dying, you may exile with an X counter instead. You may cast this card for it's redeem cost from exile by removing the X counter from it. If this card is a creature and you cast it this way, put a +1/+1 counter on it.
Just a suggestion of course. Best of luck!
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Post by ameisenmeister on May 4, 2019 19:31:24 GMT
Arisenmeister ) This could work, but it's more time-consuming to pull a card off the bottom of a deck. Otherwise, it's perfectly fine.
The biggest issue here is still going to be the A/B design.
I'd argue that it might well be a bit harder (physically) to pull a card from the bottom of your library than one from exile, but you are saving yourself from the far bigger mental task that will likely arise if you have to monitor three or four cards in exile. All the while you continuously have to evaluate when's the right time to play these cards.
Pulling cards from the bottom might be an A/B design but not a very strict one. Putting cards on the bottom of your library happens all the time in almost all magic sets. Sure, you will have to adjust some of your set to it but it's compatible with cards outside of it.
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Post by Jéské Couriano on May 4, 2019 21:31:41 GMT
Pulling cards from the bottom might be an A/B design but not a very strict one. Putting cards on the bottom of your library happens all the time in almost all magic sets. Sure, you will have to adjust some of your set to it but it's compatible with cards outside of it.
The same could be said for exile. The issue that arose with Ingest/Processors is that Processors took that concept to its logical conclusion and were significantly less useful in an environment where exile isn't overused, and Ingest is by its very nature random (as opposed to the usual targeted/specific exiles).
Processor cards also pulled from exile back to a more play-relevant zone. Wizards very rarely does this; most cards that exile either do so permanently or temporarily as part of a flicker, buyback, suspend or cheat effect and are designed so that it's difficult to forget which is the case.
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Post by uaiop on May 19, 2019 21:22:52 GMT
Well, I'm no expert, but I think if it's for one set interacting with exile might work. Now, I don't think this exile interaction should be universal, but I do think you can have some leeway. For that purpose, I recommend doing two things: 1. Remove the "expel" mechanic entirely, and instead just have cards in your set that involve exiling cards from your hand, maybe as a cost or the like, or a bigger percentage of exile removal than a typical set. This is not only easier to do since it doesn't involve getting a whole new mechanic, it also allows you to not have a mechanic that is useless outside of the context of this set, making it more rewarding to play with. 2. Add a "removal with counters" feature to your "redeem" mechanic. In the time spiral set there were cards with a mechanic called suspend, which for a cost made them exile themselves with time counters and return to the battlefield after those counters were removed each turn (which was cheaper than actually playing the card usually). You could do something similar, which instead of sending them into exile directly, uses some trigger that puts the counter on them, and you can play the card so long as the counter is there. This would make the mechanic a bit more complex, but it would allow it to work on it's own, while also preventing the continual recursion problem. Example: redeem (mana cost)- When this card would be sent to your graveyard without dying, you may exile with an X counter instead. You may cast this card for it's redeem cost from exile by removing the X counter from it. If this card is a creature and you cast it this way, put a +1/+1 counter on it. Just a suggestion of course. Best of luck! I have to say i like your view even if i dont have the knowledge of mtg in its overall general release, but i think you made a valid point. Not sure if it is something that we might have already seen though. |
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Post by uaiop on May 19, 2019 21:24:53 GMT
jverse: has your stuff gone anywhere? I mean progress
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Post by Idea on May 20, 2019 20:50:32 GMT
Well, I'm no expert, but I think if it's for one set interacting with exile might work. Now, I don't think this exile interaction should be universal, but I do think you can have some leeway. For that purpose, I recommend doing two things: 1. Remove the "expel" mechanic entirely, and instead just have cards in your set that involve exiling cards from your hand, maybe as a cost or the like, or a bigger percentage of exile removal than a typical set. This is not only easier to do since it doesn't involve getting a whole new mechanic, it also allows you to not have a mechanic that is useless outside of the context of this set, making it more rewarding to play with. 2. Add a "removal with counters" feature to your "redeem" mechanic. In the time spiral set there were cards with a mechanic called suspend, which for a cost made them exile themselves with time counters and return to the battlefield after those counters were removed each turn (which was cheaper than actually playing the card usually). You could do something similar, which instead of sending them into exile directly, uses some trigger that puts the counter on them, and you can play the card so long as the counter is there. This would make the mechanic a bit more complex, but it would allow it to work on it's own, while also preventing the continual recursion problem. Example: redeem (mana cost)- When this card would be sent to your graveyard without dying, you may exile with an X counter instead. You may cast this card for it's redeem cost from exile by removing the X counter from it. If this card is a creature and you cast it this way, put a +1/+1 counter on it. Just a suggestion of course. Best of luck! I have to say i like your view even if i dont have the knowledge of mtg in its overall general release, but i think you made a valid point. Not sure if it is something that we might have already seen though. Well, nobody expects ya to know everything (God knows I certainly don't by any means). I don't think you have to worry, the sort of thing you're aiming to do isn't anything we've seen before, at least not as a whole. Of course, sometimes ideas haven't been done because they aren't good ideas, but I do think this one has some potential. The execution of the idea will often make or break it. |
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jverse
3/3 Beast
Posts: 195
Favorite Card: Animar, Soul of Elements
Favorite Set: Shadowmoor
Color Alignment: Blue, Red, Green
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Post by jverse on Jun 4, 2019 1:26:09 GMT
jverse : has your stuff gone anywhere? I mean progress Hey, sorry for the delay. Yes, I've been working furiously to finish off this set. I scrapped the exile angle and decided to focus on discards and returning cards from the graveyard. I was inspired by some of the Eidolon cards from Dissension that allow you to return them to your hand if you cast a multicolored spell. Since multicolored cards are around half of my set, I figured that made a lot of sense to include as a keyworded mechanic. My final mechanics for the set are as follows: Unite - This spell costs [1] less to cast for each color among permanents you control. Redeem - Whenever you cast a multicolored spell, you may return a card with this ability from your graveyard to your hand. Expel - Each card you discard from your hand while casting this spell pays for <sym>1</sym>. Unite and Expel have proven very difficult to cost, but I'm working my way through intensive playtesting now to get those cards to a place I'm comfortable with. Redeem has been great, but I'm putting it almost exclusively on mono-colored cards and multicolored creatures so that it can't be combo'd to infinity. I have a few more cards to figure out, but then my set will be ready for preview, definitely by the end of June. |
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Post by ameisenmeister on Jun 4, 2019 15:04:45 GMT
jverse : has your stuff gone anywhere? I mean progress Hey, sorry for the delay. Yes, I've been working furiously to finish off this set. I scrapped the exile angle and decided to focus on discards and returning cards from the graveyard. I was inspired by some of the Eidolon cards from Dissension that allow you to return them to your hand if you cast a multicolored spell. Since multicolored cards are around half of my set, I figured that made a lot of sense to include as a keyworded mechanic. My final mechanics for the set are as follows: Unite - This spell costs [1] less to cast for each color among permanents you control. Redeem - Whenever you cast a multicolored spell, you may return a card with this ability from your graveyard to your hand. Expel - Each card you discard from your hand while casting this spell pays for <sym>1</sym>. Unite and Expel have proven very difficult to cost, but I'm working my way through intensive playtesting now to get those cards to a place I'm comfortable with. Redeem has been great, but I'm putting it almost exclusively on mono-colored cards and multicolored creatures so that it can't be combo'd to infinity. I have a few more cards to figure out, but then my set will be ready for preview, definitely by the end of June. Short feedback on your mechanics:
Unite seems like a fine mechanic. It will almost always do something but isn't going to spiral out of control. Very good!
I don't really understand the wording for Redeem. Why with this ability instead of this card? I also don't think that the mechanic is good. This will generate a hefty card advantage for basically no cost and will therefore be very hard to balance. Every spell that even remotely leads to card advantage can easily become broken if you get to cast it over and over again. Also the mechanis is a bit redundant as it pushes the player to play a lot of multicolor, the same that Unite tries to do. Having two mechanics care about the same thing is unnecessary and makes it seem as if you couldn't decide which one you liked better. I suggest you drop this version of Redeem in favor of Unite, the much better mechanic.
Expel isn't bad but you already have a cost reduction mechanic in Unite. May I suggest you use a mechanic from the old forums posted by Fleur (his admission would be necessary, of course): [cost] (You may cast this spell for its foo cost if you discard a card in addition to its other costs.) This way it would be easier to balance and you could do stuff like "When you cast this for its foo costs, [effect].
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Post by Jéské Couriano on Jun 4, 2019 21:16:16 GMT
Unite ) As a cost-reduction mechanic, this is fine.
Redeem ) This is going to need a bit of a rework, one which should make it a lot more usable (Aping Soulshift's wording): This both reinforces the multicoloured setup and encourages more use of multicoloured spells. Ideally, the Redeem number, like Soulshift, should be slightly lower than the card's CMC.
Expel ) Multiple cost-reduction mechanics in a set is overkill, and Unite is good as it is. Might I suggest instead looking for something else worthwhile to replace it, maybe from the custom keywords thread?
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jverse
3/3 Beast
Posts: 195
Favorite Card: Animar, Soul of Elements
Favorite Set: Shadowmoor
Color Alignment: Blue, Red, Green
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Post by jverse on Jun 11, 2019 0:20:10 GMT
Good suggestions. I agree that having two cost reduction mechanics is overkill. The main reason for this was that the set's theme pits black against the other colours. Multicolored and nonblack cards have Unite, while black has mainly Expel (and to a lesser extent red and a bit of blue). I still need Expel to be a discard mechanic, but I've since adjusted it taking into account some of your ideas.
As for Redeem, I like the way it works and it's actually surprisingly balanced, but the main issue that Redeem appears mainly on mono cards while pushing for multi deck-building. As such, I've taken Jeske's suggestion and adjusted it to redeem a multicolored card of a lesser CMC to the one being cast.
I'll try out these changes and see how things progress. Thanks again for the input.
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