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Post by sdfkjgh on May 25, 2023 16:12:49 GMT
Folks, before we begin, I have some bad news. Our entire crew walked out in solidarity with the... recent unpleasantness; something to do with "unsafe working conditions", or some such nonsense. Anyway, rather than hire scabs, or rather, hire new scabs (hi to The Panel!) 1, I'll be doing all the behind-the-camera stuff myself. So, stri--no, strike thatstart up the theme music, 54321 and all that... Hello, and welcome back to The MageLaughlin Group! This week, we're just outside beautiful downtown Nyongbyon. That bitch'll never find us here-- Ral: Not unless she reads this column. Like I said, she'll never find us here; NOBODY reads this drivel! And if she does find us here, she'll never take us alive!!!
Ahem. So anyway, our Panel: Daij_Djan, ZephyrPhantom, and dangerousdice, and our First Question is from dangerousdice: What does the panel think of the recent proliferation of emblem-based mechanics? (Take the initiative, Dungeons, The ring tempts you, etc...)1I do have a reputation to uphold here as the site's resident rabid, radical Leftist, ready to burn down capitalism itself, and all of its parasitic Mammonistic billionaires, to cinders. |
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Post by ZephyrPhantom on May 25, 2023 18:27:39 GMT
What the hell is this? There's no Pinkertons here to terrorize or sign into absurd contracts.
We scrapped that premise because we were too busy sending pawns and knooks to fight Ghandi's Nuclear Missles. Keep up.
Look, I get it. Sagas were a smash hit and Richard Garfield is an excellent game designer. But I think they should've stopped at dungeons, because we're seeing what happens when you spam this mechanic every set or promotional product you get - an endless supply of extra doodads and hamster wheels you have to keep track of every turn, and seeing as many of these are targeted at Commander, I can't imagine it gets easier with four players as opposed to 2.
I remember WoTC used to talk about how just remembering how to remove a time counter from suspend was a memory issue, or how too much combat interaction in Lorwyn was a concern - it feels like we've moved long past those days*, and it's assumed that people are just more willing to pick up complex game elements now (partially because Arena will track it for you, I suppose). I'm not sure if that's the direction the game should be going in, given how there are enough barriers to entry already, but at the same time it's hard to argue with the fact the product sells well.
*On a related note, it also makes me think about how people complain that EDH decks feel like they're mostly prebuilt packages of the best cards these days, or jank decks having to deal with that stuff without lots of rule 0...I wonder if that's related, in a way? As someone who's always had trouble wrapping their head around making a singleton deck that's 'good enough to not be flopping on turn 8' without 'pissing everyone off at the table' good, I feel like making decks more 'premade' would appeal to me. But at the same time, it cuts down on variety and the appeal of being able to casually play to begin with...
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Post by sdfkjgh on May 31, 2023 17:49:22 GMT
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Post by Daij_Djan on Jun 1, 2023 11:59:15 GMT
Sorry for the delay, current late work shifts really make want to get on my nerves  But first of all: What does the panel think of the recent proliferation of emblem-based mechanics? (Take the initiative, Dungeons, The ring tempts you, etc...) Honestly, I don't really have much to add to this beyond what I already said a while back – so allow me to be a bit lazy and just quote myself: Cards introducing extra game pieces like the Monarch, Day/Night, Initiative„Reading the card explains the card“ is sadly dead nowadays. Ironically, I didn't mind it much when the Monarch started this – I actually liked it back then. But the more concepts like this WotC introduces to the game, the more they start annoying me. Also, since I don't have much new to add, allow me to rant about the newest emblem addition for a second: Isn't the ring a complete flavor train wreck? First of all, why does neither this one, nor this one (and obviously not this one) use the emblem? Also even if we're looking purely at the emblem – why is it all upside?! I mean, I know. I get it. Magic players are way too weak and scared to handle any downsides (according to WotC), but the ring being a burden is one of the biggest plot points of the franchise. Heck, the mechanic is even called „the ring tempts you“.. No, no it doesn't. It doesn't „tempt“ me at all – it offers sweets upon sweets and gives me a back massage while at it.. |
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Post by ZephyrPhantom on Jun 2, 2023 7:32:20 GMT
Also, since I don't have much new to add, allow me to rant about the newest emblem addition for a second: Isn't the ring a complete flavor train wreck? First of all, why does neither this one, nor this one (and obviously not this one) use the emblem? Also even if we're looking purely at the emblem – why is it all upside?! I mean, I know. I get it. Magic players are way too weak and scared to handle any downsides (according to WotC), but the ring being a burden is one of the biggest plot points of the franchise. Heck, the mechanic is even called „the ring tempts you“.. No, no it doesn't. It doesn't „tempt“ me at all – it offers sweets upon sweets and gives me a back massage while at it.. I was originally going to play Devils' Advocate on this (because apparently my own personal devil isn't interested in doing so...) but I remembered a saying that's circulated the game industry "People will optimize the fun out of a game." In other words, if people think there's a way to play the game better that comes at the expense of fun they will sacrifice having fun, even if that defeats the point*. I've seen this firsthand particularly in MMOs where people would rather sit in a corner for 12 hours (literally!) and spam the same 1-3 buttons over and over if it was more efficient to get rare drops than play the game as intended and actually enjoy some intricate build you might've thought up that is some level of casual or competitive. If I had to take a guess, I think this is exactly what happened in playtesting - people realized there were better things to do than to play a Ring with drawbacks, and simply opted not to do so because there are other neat fun things you can do like play one of the many spellslinging Gandalfs or amass an army of orcs (I really like what they did with Amass here, as an aside, because this gives it a lot of room to show up in any set that needs some interesting tribal play). So I think it's less players being "wimpy and scared" or WoTC imagining some group of hypothetical scrubs, and more that people are actually too inherently competitive and Spike-y to roll with the idea of doing so**. Sure, you could ignore that crowd and just cater to casuals and LOTR fans, but if I was a business I'd probably also try and get as many people playing my new fancy crossover gimmick as possible, as opposed to really going all in on pleasing one group and neglecting others. (And while I don't have explicit numbers or a marketing team's research to back my experiences up, I'm definitely of the opinion that this is a much more common type of gamer than we might think - like I said, play some MMOs and you will find tons of players like that.) *Since I'm aware one of the responses to this tends to be "just play casual, don't think about playing the best!" - I would like to point out that that the impulse to play well has to be resisted in this case, i.e. playing casually is not a chunk of players' first instinct. **You can even observe this mindset in action just by looking at Gatherer comments of older cards that are bad or strictly worse versions of other cards - to quote the Baneslayer Angel comment page, "I dare you to count how many comments are made of older creatures on Gatherer that are merely offhand references to modern ones, rather than a discussion of the card in it's own right." |
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Post by Daij_Djan on Jun 2, 2023 14:40:52 GMT
Will totally respond to this when I'm at my computer later today  |
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Post by sdfkjgh on Jun 2, 2023 16:48:32 GMT
Also, since I don't have much new to add, allow me to rant about the newest emblem addition for a second: Isn't the ring a complete flavor train wreck? First of all, why does neither this one, nor this one (and obviously not this one) use the emblem? Also even if we're looking purely at the emblem – why is it all upside?! I mean, I know. I get it. Magic players are way too weak and scared to handle any downsides (according to WotC), but the ring being a burden is one of the biggest plot points of the franchise. Heck, the mechanic is even called „the ring tempts you“.. No, no it doesn't. It doesn't „tempt“ me at all – it offers sweets upon sweets and gives me a back massage while at it.. I was originally going to play Devils' Advocate on this (because apparently my own personal devil isn't interested in doing so...) but I remembered a saying that's circulated the game industry "People will optimize the fun out of a game." In other words, if people think there's a way to play the game better that comes at the expense of fun they will sacrifice having fun, even if that defeats the point*. I've seen this firsthand particularly in MMOs where people would rather sit in a corner for 12 hours (literally!) and spam the same 1-3 buttons over and over if it was more efficient to get rare drops than play the game as intended and actually enjoy some intricate build you might've thought up that is some level of casual or competitive. If I had to take a guess, I think this is exactly what happened in playtesting - people realized there were better things to do than to play a Ring with drawbacks, and simply opted not to do so because there are other neat fun things you can do like play one of the many spellslinging Gandalfs or amass an army of orcs (I really like what they did with Amass here, as an aside, because this gives it a lot of room to show up in any set that needs some interesting tribal play). So I think it's less players being "wimpy and scared" or WoTC imagining some group of hypothetical scrubs, and more that people are actually too inherently competitive and Spike-y to roll with the idea of doing so**. Sure, you could ignore that crowd and just cater to casuals and LOTR fans, but if I was a business I'd probably also try and get as many people playing my new fancy crossover gimmick as possible, as opposed to really going all in on pleasing one group and neglecting others. (And while I don't have explicit numbers or a marketing team's research to back my experiences up, I'm definitely of the opinion that this is a much more common type of gamer than we might think - like I said, play some MMOs and you will find tons of players like that.) *Since I'm aware one of the responses to this tends to be "just play casual, don't think about playing the best!" - I would like to point out that that the impulse to play well has to be resisted in this case, i.e. playing casually is not a chunk of players' first instinct. **You can even observe this mindset in action just by looking at Gatherer comments of older cards that are bad or strictly worse versions of other cards - to quote the Baneslayer Angel comment page, "I dare you to count how many comments are made of older creatures on Gatherer that are merely offhand references to modern ones, rather than a discussion of the card in it's own right."This truly excellent point is only slightly tarnished by the linked article having its second half trapped behind a paywall. |
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Post by ZephyrPhantom on Jun 2, 2023 17:47:57 GMT
This truly excellent point is only slightly tarnished by the linked article having its second half trapped behind a paywall. Where were you this whole time? Eating Uranium-238. You ever tried this stuff with polonium icing?...on second thought, I don't want to know. |
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Post by Daij_Djan on Jun 3, 2023 16:30:15 GMT
Ok, here we go First of all: (I really like what they did with Amass here, as an aside, because this gives it a lot of room to show up in any set that needs some interesting tribal play) Agreed, really like they twist on Amass they came up with That aside: I have to admit, I partly agree with you here. I especially get the "People will optimize the fun out of a game." concept as a WoW-player myself. But then again: Isn't this kind of a lazy copout to a balancing issue? People play Wraths over Plague Wind simply because their costs are adjusted as such - and likewise I'm pretty sure The Ring emblem could have been balanced accordingly.. It's not like I'd suggest a major downside either, just to be clear. Like just from the top of my head: How about making getting the additional abilities for the emblem optional, but requiring a cost of one or two mana? Having the option would definitely fit the tempation flavor and the one time life payments could for be balanced around somehow.. Then again, this is kind of one of my pet peeves - so I might be overreacting here / overthinking this |
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Post by ZephyrPhantom on Jun 3, 2023 18:26:17 GMT
Ok, here we go But then again: Isn't this kind of a lazy copout to a balancing issue? People play Wraths over Plague Wind simply because their costs are adjusted as such - and likewise I'm pretty sure The Ring emblem could have been balanced accordingly.. It's not like I'd suggest a major downside either, just to be clear. Like just from the top of my head: How about making getting the additional abilities for the emblem optional, but requiring a cost of one or two mana? Having the option would definitely fit the tempation flavor and the one time life payments could for be balanced around somehow.. Then again, this is kind of one of my pet peeves - so I might be overreacting here / overthinking this People also play Wraths over Plague Wind because 3/5ths of the game's colors and roughly 1/3rd of decks out there can make do with few to no creatures. I'm sure sdj has many horror stories about the-archetype-that-which-will-not-be-named, but more importantly, I think that's conflating just being a Spike with "sacrificing fun to be a Spike". The-archetype-which-will-not-be-named doesn't have to trip over itself to play wraths because of how it inherently works - even moreso now when Planeswalkers act as finishers that won't get hit so easily by them. The conversation we're having about Wraths and Plague Wind may be about balance, but the point I'm trying to make about The Ring is that player perception was more important than balance in its development, and the results say to me that WoTC had to fight an uphill battle dealing with people's feelings rather than how well balanced the card was. I think smaller drawbacks, particularly life payments, would've been a good compromise between people who wanted the flavor to be at least roughly correct and people who would've refused to play the mechanic otherwise. One other thing I want to bring up is that it takes a lot of time and effort to make a (custom) set, and that fielding people's feedback, arguing with your own development/design team, and making new cards all at the same time are a pretty rough process. I'm not saying the Ring is my favorite design ever (we've already talked about how spamming Dungeons == bad, and my point definitely isn't going to make up for Pinkertons, Hogaak, or other blatant issues anytime soon), but if we're talking specifically about "Why the Ring doesn't have drawbacks", I can see why WoTC might've skipped on trying to fix that particular detail in favor of making sure their new crossover set on the whole was well received. |
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Post by Daij_Djan on Jun 3, 2023 20:05:08 GMT
I could now be very petty and try to take the "maybe if WotC wouldn't put out so much stuff, they would have had the time / ressources to fix it" - but even I have to admit that would be too petty indeed 
So yeah, your reasoning is definitely solid |
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Post by ZephyrPhantom on Jun 3, 2023 20:53:44 GMT
To be fair, it's a valid point you can observe in custom magic, too - larger sets are bigger hurdles to churn out. Doubly so if art is involved. I still haven't revisited my Urabrask precon deck because I ran out of steam between that and some IRL stuff. It might not be the main problem that is causing these Hogaak/Oko/Lurrus-type designs to be spawned, but I wouldn't be surprised if it was one of many small contributors to the increasing number of gaffes WoTC has had as of late.
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Post by sdfkjgh on Jun 3, 2023 22:11:02 GMT
I could now be very petty and try to take the "maybe if WotC wouldn't put out so much stuff, they would have had the time / ressources to fix it" - but even I have to admit that would be too petty indeed
So yeah, your reasoning is definitely solid No, no, be as petty as you like, especially with how valid the point is. 🍿🍿🍿dangerousdice, do you have anything to add, or is your mouth too full of popcorn, like mine is? |
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"When in doubt, do a common." 
