foureyesisafish
7/7 Elemental
Posts: 388
Favorite Set: Ikoria: Lair of the Behemoths
Color Alignment: Blue, Red, Green
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Post by foureyesisafish on Mar 23, 2021 0:11:29 GMT
...oh god I've done it again... sorry mel...
And there he goes. Well, I feel like I've said everything I can.
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Post by sdfkjgh on Mar 23, 2021 5:47:52 GMT
Anyone else? No? Then let's move on. Question 4 comes from me, when I was reading the linked-to article:
If there are any Vintage players on the panel, what are your thoughts on nostalgic?
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ArkiThe7th
1/1 Squirrel
Any plant is edible if you’re not a coward.
Posts: 82
Favorite Card: Wee Dragonauts
Favorite Set: Pauper Masters (wait a second...)
Color Alignment: Blue, Red
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Post by ArkiThe7th on Mar 23, 2021 10:49:56 GMT
I’m not a vintage player, but from first glance, it seems like it would be a cool Un-Set keyword. Not really something you see in black border magic though. I’m glad they didn’t print it because it seems like any time you’re messing around with deck creation, bad things can happen.1 The second design idea seems a little better, just not super unique. It’s basically just a copy spell with more restrictions. I can see when they didn’t implement it either.
As I hinted above, I would love to see an Un-Set card printed with a similar keyword. I just don’t think it would be good for black bordered magic.
1. See: Companion
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foureyesisafish
7/7 Elemental
Posts: 388
Favorite Set: Ikoria: Lair of the Behemoths
Color Alignment: Blue, Red, Green
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Post by foureyesisafish on Mar 23, 2021 11:45:24 GMT
It would definitely be an awesome un-mechanic.
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Post by ZephyrPhantom on Mar 24, 2021 0:13:03 GMT
A better comparison might be to Extended or perhaps Historic than Vintage, at least in terms of intent of 'giving old interesting cards a shot'. Practically speaking, the real danger is in not knowing what random cards might fall under Nostalgic qualifications. Nostalgic <1G> <Creature> can qualify for anything from Grizzly Bears to Lotus Cobra.Nostalgic 2/1 would be a real mess too. Everything from Snapcaster Mage to Dark Confidant is now legal in your deck! You'd need a whole team dedicated to finding what nostalgic combinations are okay, unless you all made them extremely restrictive and terrible.In that sense, I agree it would be an excellent Silver Border mechanic though. I know I've personally found myself wishing that X or Y card was legal in <format> and have wanted to test it every now and then, but getting a playgroup to roll with that can take a bit of time or ruin the surprise. Nostalgic as a mechanic would allow the card to do the tough logistics work for anyone wanting to play their random old cards in a group. Incidentally, I think this is the first time MaRo's actually posted example cards of this mechanic (he previously mentioned it on a Topical Blend in 2015, but not the cards themselves), so thanks for linking that. A lot of what Mark says happens to say with the variation called "gatekeeping" also lines up with the presence of Spellshapers in the set. It seems like at some point design or development realized that the idea of nostalgic/gatekeeping was easier to work with if the card in question was explicitly defined.
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Post by dangerousdice on Mar 24, 2021 3:48:55 GMT
to echo what other have said, I think that it would have worked as a sliver-bordered card.
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foureyesisafish
7/7 Elemental
Posts: 388
Favorite Set: Ikoria: Lair of the Behemoths
Color Alignment: Blue, Red, Green
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Post by foureyesisafish on Mar 24, 2021 17:07:29 GMT
Has everyone given all of their thoughts for nostalgic? I think I have.
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Post by Daij_Djan on Mar 24, 2021 23:20:20 GMT
Here's the deal: In general, I like the idea of having cards messing with your deck construction rules. Whether that be the Companions (even though those were obviously broken), Sovereign's Realm or a few cards of my own that kind of go into the same direction Nostalgic does. Nethertheless, I do have two issues with the Nostaligic mechanic: - I don't think these just just be ordinary cards you put into your deck. If it's a Commander messing with your deck construction rules, that's cool - but not on everyday cards that are just thrown into the deck, which your opponent might not even see you have before you throw one of your Vintage bombs at them.
- The way Nostalgic is used on these cards is utterly broken. Getting access to every costing card existing now? WotC having to keep in mind every new card at that cost they're going to print ever? No, that's not gonna work.
So in general, I like exploring the design space of messing with your deck construction. But that approach is fundamentaly flawed.
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Post by sdfkjgh on Mar 25, 2021 0:04:49 GMT
I'd say it might actually be doable in black border, but only a few times, and only with constrictingly tight parameters, like a white 3/4 with flash, or a non-Legendary monogreen creature with deathtouch and base p&t>2, and these parameters would have to be constantly monitored each design and development cycle to make sure that nothing broken fits into them, so it might be more trouble than it's worth to do it. [/p]
Anyway, as is tradition, we have a surprise Fifth Question, this time from foureyesisafish . So, iiii, take it away.
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foureyesisafish
7/7 Elemental
Posts: 388
Favorite Set: Ikoria: Lair of the Behemoths
Color Alignment: Blue, Red, Green
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Post by foureyesisafish on Mar 25, 2021 2:01:57 GMT
As you all are probably aware, Blue has an awkward non-flying gap in creature types between large nonflyers such as leviathans and small bois such as merfolk. WOTC attempted to fill in the gap with the Amphin, but that didn't really pan out. Now... what would you do to fill that gap?
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Post by dangerousdice on Mar 25, 2021 4:02:41 GMT
I believe that serpents would work well! (an examples below)
fell-lake lurker creature - serpent when ~ enters the battlefield, target player mills 3.
"the fell-lake houses many secrets, lurking just beneath the surface..."
3/4
I think that would fit well!
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Post by ZephyrPhantom on Mar 25, 2021 4:30:15 GMT
I think I'd keep doing what WoTC has been doing so far, using a mix of types like Drake, Beast, Bird, Elemental, Crab, Sphinx, Human, Whale, Shapeshifter, and Spirit, just to name a few. It's worth noting some of these tribes are weenie tribes as well. If anything, I'm more curious on if WoTC has stated that they really need to have iconic 'medium-size' tribes anywhere. Having iconic big and small races feels more important to me because they'll often see play in things like Control/EDH and Constructed Aggro respectively but I can't think of an instance in which a medium size tribe like Ogre or Cyclops consistently needing to be available has been important.
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ArkiThe7th
1/1 Squirrel
Any plant is edible if you’re not a coward.
Posts: 82
Favorite Card: Wee Dragonauts
Favorite Set: Pauper Masters (wait a second...)
Color Alignment: Blue, Red
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Post by ArkiThe7th on Mar 25, 2021 5:30:43 GMT
That being said, what’s everybody’s thoughts on the other color’s “iconic” small, medium, and large creature types. Obviously red is goblins, minotaurs, and dragons respectively. But what about other colors?
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Post by ZephyrPhantom on Mar 25, 2021 6:18:52 GMT
White generally gets some mix of Human/Kor/Kithkin/Cat (depending on the plane) and Angels, I think. I'm not really sure if there's a medium-sized race there either.
Black is usually full of Zombies (and sometimes Vampires) of all shapes and sizes though Demons are clearly the big-sized guys. Skeletons sometimes still come up in the weenie ranks and I guess Horrors are sort of everywhere? Lately I feel like Horrors are more generally all five colors now though.
Green usually gets Elves(small) and Beasts (medium-big), but WoTC has tried to force an iconic big creature type from time to time. Hydra in particular got pushed for a while but I think Dinosaur will likely take the iconic big creature slot from here on out.
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foureyesisafish
7/7 Elemental
Posts: 388
Favorite Set: Ikoria: Lair of the Behemoths
Color Alignment: Blue, Red, Green
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Post by foureyesisafish on Mar 25, 2021 17:07:54 GMT
Alright, are you guys ready for a b-b-BONUS QUESTION? Because strixhaven has thrown me a curveball.
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Post by sdfkjgh on Mar 25, 2021 17:17:16 GMT
Before you do, I'd just like to say that, in the spirit of Question 5, WotC should COMPLETELY DO AWAY WITH 's mana value 3 & 4 creatures, as they take up valuable countermagic slots in my control deck!
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Post by dangerousdice on Mar 25, 2021 17:23:04 GMT
what are you referring to?
edit: oh urza, it's companions but worse!
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foureyesisafish
7/7 Elemental
Posts: 388
Favorite Set: Ikoria: Lair of the Behemoths
Color Alignment: Blue, Red, Green
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Post by foureyesisafish on Mar 25, 2021 17:57:48 GMT
Alright everyone. It seems that WOTC is finally fufiling the promise of extra decks through the new keyword Learn and the Lesson subtype. I personally really like this mechanic, but thoughts?
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Post by dangerousdice on Mar 25, 2021 18:02:40 GMT
I like the mechanic, but I fear that some of the cards will be to powerful (remember companions). so, while I like the mechanic at face value, I am reserving judgement in the case of it being broken.
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Post by sdfkjgh on Mar 25, 2021 18:32:47 GMT
Well, I was gonna post this in the Miscellaneous Card Design Thread, but...inb4 WotC does this themselves:
Favored Professor Creature--Djinn Wizard Advisor Magecraft—Whenever you cast or copy an instant or sorcery spell, learn. (You may reveal a Lesson card you own from outside the game and put it into your hand, or discard a card to draw a card.) Your sideboard can contain any number of Lesson cards. , : Copy target instant or sorcery spell with mana value X. You may choose new targets for the copy. 2/3
Actually, in the mechanics article, this quote seems to winkingly imply that Learn & Lesson are a fixed version of Arcane spells, or at least an attempt at such:
Each magecraft bonus is different, and there are magecraft cards to support a variety of deck styles and play preferences . . . provided you are a dedicated student of the arcane (no, not that Arcane) and make sure you have plenty of instant and sorcery spells at the ready.
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Post by ZephyrPhantom on Mar 25, 2021 23:29:27 GMT
I'm not surprised they made Wishboards a keyworded mechanic. Arena Bo1 is apparently a very popular format and consequently we've been seeing an uptick in cards like Karn, The Great Creator, Vivien, Arkbow Ranger, Fae of Wishes, and Legion Angel to keep the sideboard relevant in those games. I think WoTC has recognized this is a great way to onboard people to the idea of sideboards and silver bullets. (Personally, I find sideboarding a really tough thing to do well, so I think more incentives to learn it for newer players is great.) dangerousdice Wishboards are different than Companions for multiple reasons: 1) Companions are a guaranteed 8th card in hand. You still have to draw a Wish first to wish an appropriate card from your wishboard. 2) Historically, wishboards are limited by the power of the things they can wish, which means it becomes a deckbuilding excercise of finding the strongest silver bullets available. I think the initial Lessons shown so far indicate WoTC is being very careful about their power and general flexibility relative to mana cost. 3) On release, Companions (well, mostly Lurrus) were far too cheap for what they did. This was rectified by Companions needing an extra 3 mana to be 'drawn'. Wishes inherently cost some amount of mana themselves, and an extra card to get the wish out of the Wishboard, leading to them being 1-2 turns slower. This generally constrains Wishes to being effective only in decks that can generate lots of mana, i.e. Karn GC w/Tron in Modern and Cunning Wish in combo decks like Omni-Tell/Sneak and Show/maybe some Storm-like brews. That all said, I'm curious to see if Professor of Symbology will help enable a Boros weenie wish deck where topdecked creatures can keep wishing you relevant cards after you've dumped your hand. Legion Angel already sees play here and there for being a finisher that's also White card advantage.
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ArkiThe7th
1/1 Squirrel
Any plant is edible if you’re not a coward.
Posts: 82
Favorite Card: Wee Dragonauts
Favorite Set: Pauper Masters (wait a second...)
Color Alignment: Blue, Red
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Post by ArkiThe7th on Mar 26, 2021 5:30:32 GMT
That all said, I'm curious to see if Professor of Symbology will help enable a Boros weenie wish deck where topdecked creatures can keep wishing you relevant cards after you've dumped your hand. Legion Angel already sees play here and there for being a finisher that's also White card advantage. I’m all for white being more viable in standard, so I’d love for that deck to happen. I pretty much agree with what ZephyrPhantom said. I think as long as RnD is careful about what sorts of lessons they print, learn could be a fun and relatively balanced mechanic. I wonder how many silver bullet lessons they’ll print. I imagine they’d probably want to keep it to a low amount to avoid sideboard cards doubling as wish cards as well. Lessons basically not taking up space in a sideboard could make them a lot more powerful.
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foureyesisafish
7/7 Elemental
Posts: 388
Favorite Set: Ikoria: Lair of the Behemoths
Color Alignment: Blue, Red, Green
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Post by foureyesisafish on Mar 26, 2021 11:41:52 GMT
Same here. It seems they definitely learned their lesson from the last time they pulled this off.
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Post by sdfkjgh on Mar 26, 2021 16:15:14 GMT
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Post by Daij_Djan on Mar 26, 2021 19:21:49 GMT
Yeah sorry, RL has kept me busy
Yeah, Learnis an interesting mechanic I wouldn't have expected - but I think it can be balanced just fine due to the Lessons themselves (obviously). Also it's interesting how they managed to make a tutor ability work that doesn't require constant shuffling (removing "loading screens" in paper Limited was one of the reasons tutors (outside of land grabbing ones) were moved out of common a while back.
Have to admit, I'm not a big fan of this set's mechanics though.
We already knew MDFC would return once more, SpellMagecraft is your typical pseudo, and Ward (while I kind of get them wanting a mechanic like this as an evergreen) as a featured set mechanic feels insanely lackluster (also I just can't imagie it'll have a high as-fan anyway)..
The flavor is cool, sometimes hilarious - but the mechanics? Eh..
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Post by ZephyrPhantom on Mar 26, 2021 19:51:14 GMT
I think what's interesting (and risky) about Magecraft design is that if done wrong, it can become comparable to Storm in the sense that every spell effectively gets "copied" as another effect comparable to a full spell. It seems if Professor Onyx and Thousand-Year Storm are anything to go by, 6 mana rare is generally the only point where WoTC will entertain the potential for this to get out of control. It feels to me that cards like Lorehold Apprentice and Prismari Apprentice are really carefully dancing around the potential explosiveness of the effect. As an aside, Dragonsguard Elite in particulary stands out to me as a push compared to Deeproot Champion, which I distinctively remember trying to brew for Deckbuilder's Challenge 16: Unusual Strategies, but dropped it because Deeproot Champion is a lot weaker than it looks. With the existence of Dragonsguard Elite though I'm wondering if I should revisit this idea and build MonoGreen Prowess.
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Post by sdfkjgh on Mar 26, 2021 22:28:00 GMT
While I am a little reticent over Lesson & Learn's potential to break things, what I've seen so far has me leaning more toward giving them the benefit of the doubt, at least for now. I mean, it's still very early in spoiler season (even though we just finished spoiler season for Time Spiral Remastered, but that and the feelings of being overwhelmed by spoiler overload and burnout are other issues entirely, and ones that sounds like good topics for next episode, hint, hint).
Anyway, this has been The MageLaughlin Group, and I'm the weirdo with the heavily-armed Sciuridae fixation. Sorry for how long this episode took to complete, we're dealing with teething troubles of having an actually full panel that's spread out all over the globe, and I'd like to invite the panel to end with whatever final thoughts they might have.
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Post by ZephyrPhantom on Mar 26, 2021 22:44:05 GMT
It was a good first episode for me I think. Lots of back and forth and interesting viewpoints offered. Still think playing some of the cards we talk about and discussing the results would be quite interesting, but no rush.
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Post by dangerousdice on Mar 27, 2021 0:09:00 GMT
I thought it was a good episode! *facepalm* the episode is ending marvoni. you need to come earlier if you want to join in. the episodes already over!
we'll talk about this later, okay? I need to wrap up here.
anyways, it's been a pleasure to be here, but I have other matters, so i shall see you next time!
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ArkiThe7th
1/1 Squirrel
Any plant is edible if you’re not a coward.
Posts: 82
Favorite Card: Wee Dragonauts
Favorite Set: Pauper Masters (wait a second...)
Color Alignment: Blue, Red
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Post by ArkiThe7th on Mar 27, 2021 3:34:50 GMT
This was a fun one. Lots of good questions. I’ll “see” everyone next time!
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