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Post by ZephyrPhantom on Mar 18, 2021 1:47:03 GMT
Personally, I think having a fixed number would indeed be difficult, since the powerlevel of the card depends massively on the effect itself (obviously). For example even though Commune with Nature and similar effects look at five cards, I don't think anyone ever considered it being broken and/or overpowered. Also the format the card is being played in plays a massive role as well. Winota, Joiner of Forces quite obviously looks like a card mostly aimed at the Commander format, where due to the higher variance of the format you by default need a higher value to not whiff as often - while the same card in a 60 card format's deck has a much higher chance to hit a target, even without Agent of Treachery in mind.. Would an easy fix for Winota have been a preemptive "This card is only legal in Commander" ruling? Because we saw time and again with Ikoria, they designed for Commander, at the expense of all other formats, almost as if they never even realized how different Commander is from 60- or 75-card formats, or how detrimental attempting to force the constraints of the one on the other would be. Just as an aside, Winota seems to lose a lot of power if Agent of Treachery (and to some extent Angrath's Marauders) isn't a legal in a format, seeing as she's still legal in Standard. She does get brewed in Modern fairly often (sometimes with this combo, sometimes not) and apparently the Angrath's Maurauder's variant was decent enough to score a few top8s in Legacy last year, but it's not exactly a card that overwhelmed every single non-Commander formats. |
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Post by sdfkjgh on Mar 18, 2021 15:52:03 GMT
ZephyrPhantom : Fair point, but the real problem is that Winota exists, and is yet another card that is just a ticking time bomb for future design, just waiting for R&D to forget about Dreher, and put out another card that breaks a format, again.
And we all know it's not a question of if, but when, especially since they've admitted that they don't actually test for older formats.
Oh, btw, here's something on my Christmas wishlist/first things I'ma do when I get hired at WotC.
dangerousdice & ArkiThe7th, do you have any thoughts on the issue? |
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Post by Daij_Djan on Mar 18, 2021 16:15:05 GMT
Would an easy fix for Winota have been a preemptive "This card is only legal in Commander" ruling? I don't really see how they could have done that, though. Literally printing that phrase on the card is really bland (can't think of a better term from the top of my head) and restricting the format without doing so pretty much has the same issues as the Companion ruling change had.. Then there would be the approach of simply putting it into a "directly aimed at Commander" set, but here's where the format's success comes into play: From a pure buisness perspective I totally get why they'd want to put cards aimed at Commander into other sets as well.. |
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Post by dangerousdice on Mar 18, 2021 18:35:16 GMT
I think that winota and friends would of worked in a commander exclusive product, but I havent really seen her played against me, so I'm not speaking from personal expirience.
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Post by ZephyrPhantom on Mar 18, 2021 19:29:19 GMT
sdfkjgh - To be fair, I think not actively testing for older formats is fine so long as you aren't trying to actively and repeatedly break the 'lowest' bar on the ladder. A lot of problems in older formats like Oko pretty much had the same problems they did in Standard with WoTC's constant efforts to push cards that probably didn't need it. To continue my one mana card digging example, I would like to see more Ponders and less Once Upon a Times. "When" is fine, "too frequent" isn't, imo. Then there would be the approach of simply putting it into a "directly aimed at Commander" set, but here's where the format's success comes into play: From a pure business perspective I totally get why they'd want to put cards aimed at Commander into other sets as well.. It's fairly ironic how Commander, a format originally about just taking random legendaries in your collection with varying levels of power and just trying to make cool decks with them, has changed since WoTC recognized it as the most popular casual format with an actual name. MaRo has answered at least once question with an acknowledgement that certain effects are/aren't put on Legendaries in sets nowadays to print more likeable commanders and a regular topic among groups like the EDHREC podcast is how cards like Korvold, Fae-Cursed King are either full of self-enabling value when players would've previously have had to supplement cards like Kresh the Bloodbraided with cards in their deck. Of course, with Pandora's Box open, there's no real way to undo these changes - even if your playgroup elects to ban a large number of cards, a different group you jump to might not feel the same. I think that winota and friends would of worked in a commander exclusive product, but I havent really seen her played against me, so I'm not speaking from personal expirience. ....speaking of which, the panel is technically big enough now that it could be a playgroup. How would you all feel about playing a game or two every now and then with cards we've talked about on the series and discussing the results? Various podcasts like The Command Zone and EDHRec do similar things.
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Post by dangerousdice on Mar 18, 2021 21:12:56 GMT
I think that winota and friends would of worked in a commander exclusive product, but I havent really seen her played against me, so I'm not speaking from personal expirience. ....speaking of which, the panel is technically big enough now that it could be a playgroup. How would you all feel about playing a game or two every now and then with cards we've talked about on the series and discussing the results? Various podcasts like The Command Zone and EDHRec do similar things. i'd really like that! |
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Post by sdfkjgh on Mar 18, 2021 22:00:21 GMT
ZephyrPhantom: I'm not really interested in playing Commander, or using Spelltable.
Designing for Commander, otoh, is pretty interesting, but I don't ever wanna design any auto-includes. If I accidentally an auto-include, I'm sorry. |
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ArkiThe7th
1/1 Squirrel
Any plant is edible if you’re not a coward.
Posts: 82
Favorite Card: Wee Dragonauts
Favorite Set: Pauper Masters (wait a second...)
Color Alignment: Blue, Red
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Post by ArkiThe7th on Mar 18, 2021 22:31:30 GMT
Apologies for my recent absence, I’ve been busy with personal stuff.
I don’t have much to say that hasn’t already been covered. On the subject of Winota, I feel like she’s just a card that shouldn’t ever had been printed. Winota isn’t super overbearing in commander because: 1) It’s a multiplayer format, and 2) a lot of playgroups enforce certain power levels of cards. Winota is a very powerful commander, but I think it’s not as much of a problem because of those 2 things. In standard, however, there’s not as much of a mutual agreement between players and everyone just plays the best decks. I still don’t like Winota in commander because she feels like she was designed for it, and I really don’t like it when cards are designed for certain formats, especially commander.
As for how many cards to look at from your library, I think 6 is a good max. Anything more can cause decision paralysis which slows the game.
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Post by ZephyrPhantom on Mar 18, 2021 22:56:33 GMT
ZephyrPhantom: I'm not really interested in playing Commander, or using Spelltable.
Designing for Commander, otoh, is pretty interesting, but I don't ever wanna design any auto-includes. If I accidentally an auto-include, I'm sorry. Didn't mean Commander or Spelltable to be clear. If anything I was thinking Cockatrice with 60-card kitchen table/fantasy format/actual format stuff more than anything, like that one idea you had about people making decks for each other a while back or just whatever's mucking up Standard recently/whatever's trending brew-wise for one of us that the rest of us haven't tried or experienced. |
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Post by Daij_Djan on Mar 18, 2021 23:05:00 GMT
It's fairly ironic how Commander, a format originally about just taking random legendaries in your collection with varying levels of power and just trying to make cool decks with them, has changed since WoTC recognized it as the most popular casual format with an actual name. Oh yeah, for sure. What started out kind of as a „play big spells“ format has gotten much more streamlined over the years. More and more „staples“ are getting printed and the curves are getting lower and lower. And not everyone is happy about these changes. ....speaking of which, the panel is technically big enough now that it could be a playgroup. How would you all feel about playing a game or two every now and then with cards we've talked about on the series and discussing the results? Various podcasts like The Command Zone and EDHRec do similar things. That could be interesting indeed. We'd need to agree on a program to use, also time zone issues would definitely come up, but in general? Consider me interested at the very least  As for how many cards to look at from your library, I think 6 is a good max. Anything more can cause decision paralysis which slows the game. That's actually also a very good point to bring up. |
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Post by ZephyrPhantom on Mar 18, 2021 23:13:58 GMT
....speaking of which, the panel is technically big enough now that it could be a playgroup. How would you all feel about playing a game or two every now and then with cards we've talked about on the series and discussing the results? Various podcasts like The Command Zone and EDHRec do similar things. That could be interesting indeed. We'd need to agree on a program to use, also time zone issues would definitely come up, but in general? Consider me interested at the very least As for how many cards to look at from your library, I think 6 is a good max. Anything more can cause decision paralysis which slows the game. That's actually also a very good point to bring up. Personally I'm in favor of Cockatrice because it's easy to set up and doesn't take up a lot of space (or need a good connection, for that matter). A simple Discord server to pool game results would probably handle the rest and let us sidestep concerns about needing everyone on at the same time. If the panel (or most of it) is onboard with it we can talk more about it as things go. That last point about descision paralysis reminds me of how in-depth card choices can get for something like Gifts Ungiven or Doomsday, to the point primers usually have a whole section about them. Playing combo sure is tough.... |
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foureyesisafish
7/7 Elemental
Posts: 388
Favorite Set: Ikoria: Lair of the Behemoths
Color Alignment: Blue, Red, Green
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Post by foureyesisafish on Mar 19, 2021 15:51:44 GMT
That could be interesting, especially if we do some with custom formats like MSEDH.
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Post by sdfkjgh on Mar 19, 2021 18:58:32 GMT
Getting back to the discussion at hand, I have a followup question: should there be a limit to how many cards can be gotten from my previous question, either to the hand, or to the battlefield?
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Post by Daij_Djan on Mar 19, 2021 19:20:15 GMT
To be fair, most of these effects only "catch" one card anyway, some two and only very few more than that - so I don't think a hard limit is necessary in that regard. Also this again massively depends on the card itself, so I'd probably argue against a general rule anyway, to be honest.
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foureyesisafish
7/7 Elemental
Posts: 388
Favorite Set: Ikoria: Lair of the Behemoths
Color Alignment: Blue, Red, Green
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Post by foureyesisafish on Mar 19, 2021 20:18:18 GMT
Yeah, general rules can be misleading. Always design for the card first.
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Post by ZephyrPhantom on Mar 19, 2021 20:20:51 GMT
I think like the previous question, this is something highly dependent on context, but in light of the recent cards we're discussing vs. older ones, I think it's fair to say WoTC is pushing the number of cards you can get for four or more mana. Muxus and Winota also skip the casting aspect of the game by putting cards directly onto the battlefield, so maybe they could've been limited by adding to hand instead or making vanilla tokens for valid hits instead of getting the card at all.
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Post by Daij_Djan on Mar 20, 2021 0:30:04 GMT
or making vanilla tokens for valid hits instead of getting the card at all.
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Post by ZephyrPhantom on Mar 20, 2021 0:46:29 GMT
or making vanilla tokens for valid hits instead of getting the card at all. Yeah, exactly. Part of the reason CoCo-like cards are strong is because they not only put value on the board but because that value tends to be worth a lot more than the mana you invested, usually to the point it causes a big change on board or even wins the game outright. The more limited the value produced by the card is, the weaker it is overall - this is why Academy Rector > Arena Rector. |
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Post by sdfkjgh on Mar 21, 2021 0:25:50 GMT
Does anyone else have anything to add before I post my say?
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Post by dangerousdice on Mar 21, 2021 0:56:21 GMT
not really.
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Post by ZephyrPhantom on Mar 21, 2021 1:03:38 GMT
Only if Ral does.  |
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foureyesisafish
7/7 Elemental
Posts: 388
Favorite Set: Ikoria: Lair of the Behemoths
Color Alignment: Blue, Red, Green
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Post by foureyesisafish on Mar 21, 2021 1:15:11 GMT
Only if Ral does. I second that |
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ArkiThe7th
1/1 Squirrel
Any plant is edible if you’re not a coward.
Posts: 82
Favorite Card: Wee Dragonauts
Favorite Set: Pauper Masters (wait a second...)
Color Alignment: Blue, Red
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Post by ArkiThe7th on Mar 21, 2021 5:03:04 GMT
I’ve given all my thoughts. |
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Post by sdfkjgh on Mar 21, 2021 21:24:30 GMT
Ok, here goes: Senpai?
I guess my biggest issue with current design is deus ex machinae. Just like in writing, where they're viewed as a sign of bad, or at the very least, lazy writing, so too are deus ex machina cards a sign of bad/lazy design, because it means that everything up until that point didn't matter. Senpai?
I'm not against cards that can help you claw your way back from behind, far from it. But the key point of that is the "claw your way back";Senpai, notice me! winning from behind is doable, but still with a modicum of difficulty, it could still go either way, and the victor will be the one who makes the best plays and counterplays. It's all about interaction, not just "pay some amount of mana, win on the spot."
NOTICE ME, SENPAI!!!
Ladies, gentlemen, and others, allow me to introduce Mel. She's the Anthropomorphic Personification of my design and development sensibilities, and is a bit of a shrinking violet genki girl. Mel, how long have you been lurking in that corner, working up the nerve to cut in?
Since late last episode.
Well, you're here now, what do you have to say?
Do you all remember when Impulse was deemed "Too powerful", because it looked at too many cards, so we got Anticipate? Heck, do you even remember the concept of R&D saying "Whoa, hey now, that's too powerful; mebbe we should nerf it before sending it out into the public"?
I gotta admit, that does seem awfully, wonderfully, god-I-miss-those-days-and-wish-we-could-go-back-RIGHT-NOW quaint. Oh god!
If we view card bannings as equivalent to factory recalls, what company in the entire world would ever be able to remain in operation after all that's happened in the past three years?! At the very least, there'd be calls for investigations into the Quality Control Department and its process.
Because that's essentially what this is: a QC issue. If a sedan is supposed to have an upper limit on horsepower in order to be street-legal, what do you think would happen if that sedan's maker started releasing versions that consistently have that upper limit as their LOWER limit? Sure, you'd have the gearhead and Tim Taylor & Jeremy Clarkson crowds constantly singing your praises, but the average suburbanite is most likely gonna scream for your head for putting out such a dangerously unsafe card, and rightfully so.
Some of you are uncomfortable with a hard and fast rule for discoverable cards, but I'd say that five should be the upper limit, and the more cards you can get out of those discoverable cards (without going into  spells), the lower that upper limit should be, on a 1:1 basis, at the very least. This reciprocal relationship is something the public need never be expressly told about, rather it's a tool of design/development. Let's say you're designing a card:
Search Card   Sorcery 
You want the card to be able to discover lands and creatures with cmc≤3, but for the sake of argument, we'll say that the discoverable cards vs obtainable cards reciprocal is in effect. So, if Dc=5, then Oc must be 1. If we want Oc to equal 2, then Dc must be 4; Oc=3, Dc=3, etc.
AND NO PUTTING DIRECTLY ONTO THE BATTLEFIELD!!! Richard Garfield-senpai created The Mana System for a reason, why does R&D keep ignoring it, to everyones peril?!
Rule #1, right?
Right. Oh, thank you, Senpai, I've been wanting to do this for ages!
You're welcome, now hop to it!
Right! CLASS, WHAT IS RULE #1?!
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Post by ZephyrPhantom on Mar 21, 2021 22:50:30 GMT
If we view card bannings as equivalent to factory recalls, what company in the entire world would ever be able to remain in operation after all that's happened in the past three years?! At the very least, there'd be calls for investigations into the Quality Control Department and its process. Because that's essentially what this is: a QC issue. If a sedan is supposed to have an upper limit on horsepower in order to be street-legal, what do you think would happen if that sedan's maker started releasing versions that consistently have that upper limit as their LOWER limit? Sure, you'd have the gearhead and Tim Taylor & Jeremy Clarkson crowds constantly singing your praises, but the average suburbanite is most likely gonna scream for your head for putting out such a dangerously unsafe card, and rightfully so. I agree with the general points of this statement. We can generally assume that Standard should stay a power level below say, Modern/Pauper, and those formats should generally have different flows of play than cEDH, Vintage, Legacy, Oldschool, or various formats with a wider more breakable cardpool. Some of you are uncomfortable with a hard and fast rule for discoverable cards, but I'd say that five should be the upper limit, and the more cards you can get out of those discoverable cards (without going into spells), the lower that upper limit should be, on a 1:1 basis, at the very least. This reciprocal relationship is something the public need never be expressly told about, rather it's a tool of design/development. However, I don't agree with this because it's too easy to take this hard and fast rule and poke holes in it. For example, in most cases Infernal Tutor is extremely restrictive to the point you will often be able to pull 0 cards compared to much more flexible tutors like Stoneforge Mystic and perhaps Eladamri's Call. Yet, in Legacy it's a much more powerful card because of its synergy with Lion's Eye Diamond which allows it to almost always have its Hellbent mode on with a little patience. Does this mean we don't print Infernal Tutor because it's only overpowered in Legacy? Should we limit so badly it's not usable in Legacy, and even more useless in other formats? Some other arguments I could make about this include: - What about Dubious Challenge vs. Collected Company? Is discovering 10 cards and putting an extremely powerful one into play really that much better when your opponent is able to put an equally powerful card from your deck into play? What happens if you se a symmetry-breaker like Brooding Saurian to negate the drawback? Is Brooding Saurian's presence enough to suddenly turn Dubious Challenge into an extremely overpowered card? - How relevant is say, drawing the top 50 cards of your mono-Blue deck if your opponent just cheated Sword of Body and Mind into play via Stongeforge Mystic? - Were the people who printed Nourishing Shoal and Goryo's Vengeance supposed to anticipate both Griselbrand and Worldspine Wurm, two wildly different cards that are both needed to turn Griselbrand into a feasible card advantage engine in Modern? Likewise, were the people who printed Allosaurus Rider supposed to anticipate Griselbrand and Neoform? What card are we supposed to be bannning here, the 2-mana Reanimators/Tutors? The seemingly powerful Yawgmoth's Bargain-reference that is dependent on these cards to make it onto the battlefield on time? Do we ignore (the much more dominant at the time) Uro, Titan of Nature's Wrath just because it can't discover your entire library and instantly win you the game? - As an addendum to that above point, If I banned Griselbrand and printed a version that paid 7 to draw 5 cards instead, did this rule really change anything about Griselbrand decks? In broad strokes, I agree that you can roughly argue certain cards set basic standards we should follow - for example, a  or Grizzly Bears with a small ability is a very common design in most nonBlue colors these days and seeing as that hasn't broken any formats, such a standard is probably okay for most cards. Likewise, my point about Muxus and Winota (and a lot of the cards I've listed this episode) is that many of them cause problems in the context of a specific environment, and thus there is some merit to a very specific statement like "Cards that are catered to Commander but are printed in Standard should be carefully tested on how much they affect Standard (or an adjacent format like Historic)." I think a hard rule that applies to everything generalizes way too hard on how different formats and interactions can be across Magic (now and in the future), and that you're trying too hard to simplify something that is not necessarily predictable or simple. AND NO PUTTING DIRECTLY ONTO THE BATTLEFIELD!!! Mind telling me how Deploy the Gatewatch (or Esika, God of the Tree, as a more recent example) is broken first? Also, Nexus of Fate was printed very shortly after Anticipate's first printing. It's not really fair to cherry pick the busted cards of one Standard to compare to the weaker cards of another.
While not directly related to solving the problem, I do think it would be better if WoTC was willing to promote more Historic (or a rotating variation of Historic) play in Arena with events and relevant opportunities and whatnot. This way, more Eternal/Direct-to-Modern/Pauper-targeted printings could be done, and then cards that are on the 'safer' end of those releases can be selectively added into Historic. |
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Post by sdfkjgh on Mar 22, 2021 1:08:27 GMT
ZephyrPhantom: When I said "discoverable cards", I should've defined the term: "Look at the top N cards of your library". As you've pointed out, definite terms are too concrete for such a nebulous goal as "strong, balanced, but not overpowered". I'm perfectly fine with tutors to any non-battlefield zone, because you still have to pay that card's mana cost to cast it. Even tutoring to the stack is fine, so long as you still have to pay the mana cost to cast it. But I'm just sick and tired of designs that not only ignore Rule #1 (Don't Subvert The Mana System!), but shiv it to death, mutilate the still-cooling body, then piss on the corpse, all just for "fun".
We might be at a point where in order to pump the brakes on design, R&D could start a 5-year total moratorium on all mana multipliers (including all ramp spells), all "without paying its mana cost" cards (including "put it onto the battlefield"; basically, if it wasn't cast, then it's not allowed under this moratorium), all Dc>5 effects, and all Oc>3 effects, and the players might not even notice the depth and breadth of these changes, but they'd certainly notice that things aren't as stupidly bah-roken all the goshdarn time.
Well, you are an eternal optimist, Mel. Sorry the callout didn't work for you.
Anyone else have any thoughts before we move onto the next question? |
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foureyesisafish
7/7 Elemental
Posts: 388
Favorite Set: Ikoria: Lair of the Behemoths
Color Alignment: Blue, Red, Green
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Post by foureyesisafish on Mar 22, 2021 2:42:12 GMT
Well I don-
May I have a word?
Oh sure Roy. Everyone, this is Roy, a planeswalker from Nessythiwherever he's from.
It's Nessythia, FourEyes. You of all people should know that... anyways, Mel, I do have to bring up one exception to your general rule about subverting a mana system. If a spell can search for something with lesser mana cost and put it on the battlefield, then really you are paying a card in order to be able to use that spell. In other words, if the spell requires you pay the price to get the thing you want, it's fair. Trust me, I know from experience... lots of experience...
Noble contracts still haunt you to this day Roy?
Well I wouldn't call it haunting... more just burned into my memory.
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Post by sdfkjgh on Mar 22, 2021 3:19:10 GMT
Well I don- May I have a word?Oh sure Roy. Everyone, this is Roy, a planeswalker from Nessythiwherever he's from.It's Nessythia, FourEyes. You of all people should know that... anyways, Mel, I do have to bring up one exception to your general rule about subverting a mana system. If a spell can search for something with lesser mana cost and put it on the battlefield, then really you are paying a card in order to be able to use that spell. In other words, if the spell requires you pay the price to get the thing you want, it's fair. Trust me, I know from experience... lots of experience...Noble contracts still haunt you to this day Roy?
Well I wouldn't call it haunting... more just burned into my memory. |
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foureyesisafish
7/7 Elemental
Posts: 388
Favorite Set: Ikoria: Lair of the Behemoths
Color Alignment: Blue, Red, Green
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Post by foureyesisafish on Mar 22, 2021 3:29:25 GMT
Sometimes these effects can search the library just fine as well. For example, Fiend Artisan from Ikoria isn't broken at all, especially when compared to another legend from the same set. I also must mention Cascade, which, while difficult to balance, works out about right on higher CMC spells.
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Post by sdfkjgh on Mar 22, 2021 19:25:37 GMT
Sometimes these effects can search the library just fine as well. For example, Fiend Artisan from Ikoria isn't broken at all, especially when compared to another legend from the same set. I also must mention Cascade, which, while difficult to balance, works out about right on higher CMC spells. Oh shit, now you've done it, Roy. Mel's a little too traumatized by the classic cascade combo targets and Birthing Pod effects to answer (poor thing is curled up into a fetal ball in the corner, shivering and mumbling about "proven to be inherently broken", "not learning from their mistakes", and "not testing for older formats"), so I'ma just say that we respectfully disagree on this point.
If there's no objections, I'd like to move on to the next question.
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