harrowed777
1/1 Squirrel
Posts: 69
Set Hub: Harrowed777's Set Hub
Formerly Known As: OCB777
Favorite Card: Alexander Clamilton
Favorite Set: Horrors of Nocturne
Color Alignment: White, Blue, Black
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Post by harrowed777 on Jul 2, 2020 19:22:38 GMT
Mythic Rarity. Oof. Here is a rarity type, rarer than rare, but with cards either being the most valuable cards in a given set, or as cheap as commons. So, as a fan designer building a set for myself and friends to play, and maybe cube draft, how much should I take Mythic rarity into account?
According to WotC: Mythic rares should be less wordy and complex than Rares, Get the biggest effects, and be flashy/splashy to wow. I'm not saying that Mythic is literally just a marketing gimmick to attract stupid people and children... but... ( Source) As a fan designer, how should I decide between rarity and mythic rarity? And is it legitimate to just ignore it? Here is an example of why I feel it is meaningless in the end: Sol Ring - Sol Ring has been printed (physically or digitally) in 26 Sets. 20 times it was printed as uncommon. 3 times as Rare. And 3 times as Mythic Rare. Now one could argue that the rare and mythic rare printings were all special release and online release, but it was released online as an uncommon as well as rare and mythic. In the end it is VERY arbitrary and seems pretty worthless other than for "chase" status. So, is it valid for fan creators to dismiss this pseudo rarity and just go Common, Uncommon, and Rare; or would the community consider it lazy/lesser because the designer ignored the 4th pseudo-rarity? I am genuinely interested in hearing from others about their thoughts in regards to Mythic Rare inclusion, and rarity in general.
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Post by fluffydeathbringer on Jul 2, 2020 19:52:43 GMT
speaking as someone with very little game theory savvy who'll oblige to eating humble pie if he turns out to be full of shit, abolishing mythic is absolutely legitimate, for the following reasons
- its mission statement of being about Impact and Splashiness and Largeness has been flatout bullshit from quite early on in its inception given the timeframe Lotus Cobra got printed, so mythic is just inherently conceptually corrupt - said mission statement also smacks of having to have a super special rarity to make your concept look cool when you could just be making more interesting rares
- in terms of draft, having a super special once-in-a-blue-moon rare in some packs but not in others makes for egregious, avoidable game swings. you don't fix the problem of deliberately making game-warping cards by making them rarer, you fix it by not making game-warping cards to begin with
all of these factors coming together make mythic obsolete at best and a detrimental relic at worst
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Ketsuban
0/0 Germ
Posts: 11
Color Alignment: White, Blue, Red
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Post by Ketsuban on Jul 2, 2020 20:12:47 GMT
The usual explanation for Lotus Cobra is it's high-profile due to its effect being "Landfall - Crack a Lotus Petal", but it does rather undermine the message, and as The Changing Definition of Mythic Rare points out it was downhill from there.
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Post by ZephyrPhantom on Jul 2, 2020 20:29:20 GMT
Sets have functioned just fine without the Mythic Rare status for a good 10-15 years. You can completely ignore it and it'll be fine (especially with Cube, which I'm fairly certain doesn't care about rarities by default).
As others have pointed out WoTC's inability to define what Mythic Rare should be is one of their more obvious blunders over the years*. I think it's ultimately just another tool in the designer's toolkit that you can choose to use or not use - there are other examples of rarity manipulation in sets like Timeshifted rarity/Masterpieces/etc... that you may want to play with to increase/decrease some kind of flashy effect appearing, and if you think it better serves your set, all the more power to you. There was a point in time where Planeswalkers staying at Mythic was the norm for a very long time - nowadays, that's obviously no longer the case.
(*I do however think Mythic Rare was doomed from the get-go in a manner similar to how Fetches are in a very bad place print-wise right now as well - they're being designed/distributed the way they are because someone wants to make money off of them, and those people don't care that the easiest way is also one that hurts the health of the game. Sol Ring is a good contrast against this because it's printed all the time and but also has had a super-rare printing as a Masterpiece - to paraphrase TCC's Professor, Sol Ring's "meaningful reprints" mean you're never short on wanting one, but the existence of a cosmetic super special chase rare alternative lets WoTC make money without limiting player's access to a powerful card that is also viewed as a format staple.)
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Post by Lady Mapi on Jul 2, 2020 21:56:25 GMT
Yeah, don't worry - Mythic Rare is a PR thing, and not something you really need to consider for your fan set.
If you ignore Mythic Rare, the other three rarities actually have a definite purpose for drafting:
• Common cards are going to make up the bulk of your card pool when building your deck. As such, they need to be broadly useful and to support multiple archetypes. • Uncommon cards are in the sweet spot in terms of how many you'll grab, so they should be set up so that you can build your deck around them. • Rare cards do should flashy, bomby stuff, because you're probably going to end up with 1-2 of them while drafting.
They have no purpose for constructed decks.
---
On the other hand, Cubes rely on every card being roughly equal, so it really depends on what you're designing.
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jverse
3/3 Beast
Posts: 195
Favorite Card: Animar, Soul of Elements
Favorite Set: Shadowmoor
Color Alignment: Blue, Red, Green
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Post by jverse on Jul 2, 2020 22:32:54 GMT
I think there is a legitimate argument for the existence of mythics. I also like Maro's description of rares and mythics.
"Rares help you win. Mythics just win."
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Post by Lady Mapi on Jul 2, 2020 23:49:13 GMT
I think there is a legitimate argument for the existence of mythics. I also like Maro's description of rares and mythics. "Rares help you win. Mythics just win." Yes, there is. Unfortunately, "Wizards of the Coast wants to create chase cards so that they can milk money out of the whales in their audience" isn't really applicable when you're designing a fan set that you aren't selling.
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jverse
3/3 Beast
Posts: 195
Favorite Card: Animar, Soul of Elements
Favorite Set: Shadowmoor
Color Alignment: Blue, Red, Green
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Post by jverse on Jul 3, 2020 2:30:05 GMT
I don't disagree that it makes WotC money, but I don't see a problem having a power level and associated rarity higher than rare. If you're making a custom cube or whatever, even if it's just for drafting, it's about the quickest indicator a player can use to determine if a card is worth a second look.
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jverse
3/3 Beast
Posts: 195
Favorite Card: Animar, Soul of Elements
Favorite Set: Shadowmoor
Color Alignment: Blue, Red, Green
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Post by jverse on Jul 3, 2020 2:46:21 GMT
As for the Sol ring argument, it's power is absolutely rare or mythic rare level, but it's also a boring card so that doesn't really fit the mythic philosophy. Now it exists in some weird limbo where it's way too powerful to be uncommon, but not at all interesting enough to be at higher rarities. Since it's essentially a default card in every commander deck, it's just a failed card design all around. Another example I could give is Brazen Borrower. Powerful card, but super boring design that doesn't feel mythic at all. To me, that's a design fail, not a rarity fail. Then there's Uro, who is comfortably in the "wtf were they thinking?" category.
I think it's a mistake to base your own mythic designs on a corrupted vision of a money making organization. If you make your custom mythics in the spirit of what they were supposed to be, I think there is still a place for them. I try to make my mythics fun or unusual rather than just busted. That said, I think the strongest argument against them is what was said above about having extremely rare swing cards in draft that make for a busted and unfair play environment.
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harrowed777
1/1 Squirrel
Posts: 69
Set Hub: Harrowed777's Set Hub
Formerly Known As: OCB777
Favorite Card: Alexander Clamilton
Favorite Set: Horrors of Nocturne
Color Alignment: White, Blue, Black
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Post by harrowed777 on Jul 3, 2020 4:15:10 GMT
Thank you everyone for the interesting feedback.
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Post by Lady Mapi on Jul 3, 2020 4:31:22 GMT
I don't disagree that it makes WotC money, but I don't see a problem having a power level and associated rarity higher than rare. If you're making a custom cube or whatever, even if it's just for drafting, it's about the quickest indicator a player can use to determine if a card is worth a second look. The problem with the bolded bit is that cards in a cube are supposed to be roughly equivalent in power by design. Having a handful of cards in your cube that are better than the rest of them makes the process of drafting into a game of grabbing the mythics, which wrecks the balance of the whole thing. You shouldn't need to go "oh, this card is worth a second look" in a cube, since the whole point is that every card is worth a second look. Seriously, Mythic Rares exist to push packs. Let's say you're cracking packs from Ikoria, and you're looking for one specific card of each rarity. By cracking one pack, you have roughly an 8.5% chance to find the Common you're looking for, a 3.7% chance to find the Uncommon, a 1.6% chance to find the Rare, and a 0.8% chance to find your Mythic Rare. If you want to beat a 50% chance of finding that one Mythic you're looking for, you have to crack 83 packs. And, to enable this kind of behavior, Mythic Rares are designed to be pushed, or flashy, or weird. Remove that requirement, and Mythic Rarity becomes basically a sticker that you slap on a subset of your rares because they're extra exciting or whatever. Which raises the question of why those cards got more creativity poured into them. Why do you feel the need to mark roughly 5% of your set as special? And why would you waste that effort on a group of cards that most people won't see? Someone who buys three packs for a booster draft has less than a 1-in-3 chance of pulling a single Mythic Rare. Why not make your Rares cool and flashy, because that person is guaranteed to see three of them? EDIT: Sorry if I come off a bit strong, it's just that I got more and more annoyed as I dug into the math. Don't even get me started on how Shadows Over Innistrad and Eldritch Moon had another, independent 1-in-8 chance of replacing a common with a second rare/mythic.
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jverse
3/3 Beast
Posts: 195
Favorite Card: Animar, Soul of Elements
Favorite Set: Shadowmoor
Color Alignment: Blue, Red, Green
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Post by jverse on Jul 3, 2020 5:12:07 GMT
No offense taken. You're making perfectly reasonable arguments.
Obviously I don't feel as strongly about this issue as you do, which is fine. I have a feeling that if all of your cards are special, however, that none of them would feel special. You might be right that rare could be the sole area for those special cards to exist, and that mythic doesn't need to be there at all. I'm not sure. There is no reason why a custom set has to have the same rate of mythics as a conventional Magic set though. I agree that mythic-drafting is lame and makes for a wonky limited experience. I would much rather players get 5 commons, 5 uncommons, 3 rares, and 2 mythics per pack (or something like that).
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Post by Lady Mapi on Jul 3, 2020 7:54:20 GMT
I would much rather players get 5 commons, 5 uncommons, 3 rares, and 2 mythics per pack (or something like that). I think that would make drafting a much weaker experience unless you set out from the start with this pack arrangement in mind. Currently, a group drafting a set can expect to collectively see 240 commons, 72 uncommons, ~21 rares, and ~3 mythic rares. That means that it's likely that they'll see each common roughly twice. On top of that, it's likely that they'll see almost every uncommon, half of all rares, and a fifth of all mythic rares in the set. Let's simplify that and make the ration 2 : 1 : 0.5 : 0.2. This is kinda important because it's how you keep drafts fresh. With the kind of pack you're thinking of, the draft group would see 120 commons, 120 uncommons, 72 rares, and 48 mythics. If you wanted to maintain a similar level of how often a given card shows up, your set would have to have ~50 commons, ~120 uncommons, ~144 rares, and ~240 mythics. You have a 564 card set, and more than a fifth of those cards would have to be flashy, unique effects. That set would have 16 sets worth of mythic rares in it, and sounds like a nightmare to design. If you maintained the same proportions as a recent WotC set, however, you'd have a ratio more like 1 : 1.5 : 1.5 : 3. I dunno about you, but I'd get pretty tired of seeing every mythic card multiple times. EDIT: Also, because I had to.
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foureyesisafish
7/7 Elemental
Posts: 386
Favorite Set: Ikoria: Lair of the Behemoths
Color Alignment: Blue, Red, Green
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Post by foureyesisafish on Jan 22, 2021 15:03:44 GMT
I have a... weird idea for how mythic rare could work. What if it was used for parts of sets that are for constructed only?
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