reizon
0/0 Germ
Against the fracking graphics law.
Posts: 29 
Color Alignment: Blue, Red, Green
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Post by reizon on Dec 9, 2019 0:14:49 GMT
I have a serious complaint about the artist law.
I would say 'hello' but that law is ruining any chance to present ANY cards.
I don't mind you slam down cards from another editor,
But the artist law Is the bomb.
I made a post on that in the lounge...
Otherwise, you've already lost me, like it or not.
You can say hello, but I seriously doubt that it matters now with your protocols.
Hello...
and goodbye. |
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Post by Daij_Djan on Dec 9, 2019 0:43:00 GMT
Hi reizon, sad to hear your unhappy with our forum rules - however please note those are a legal requirement for our website. I know there are places out there that don't care about these things - but we do. And for that reason there have been (and most likely will never be) any plans to loosen up on those rules. If you have some old artwork you don't know the source anymore, there's always the option to post cards without art and/or a render at all, searching up new art using sources that provide you with artist credit, or try searching up the artist using (for example) our primer or our Art Clinic. One more thing to clariy though: I don't mind you slam down cards from another editor, Actually, we don't do this at all. We even had renders created using other MTG editor programs featured on the front page in the past. One of your pictures just got taken down by me as you used the editor's name in the artist credit field, that's all there was to it. ~Daij_Djan |
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reizon
0/0 Germ
Against the fracking graphics law.
Posts: 29
Color Alignment: Blue, Red, Green
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Post by reizon on Dec 9, 2019 0:54:44 GMT
Hi reizon, sad to hear your unhappy with our forum rules - however please note those are a legal requirement for our website. I know there are places out there that don't care about these things - but we do. And for that reason there have been (and most likely will never be) any plans to loosen up on those rules. ~Daij_Djan
Legal issues... Your talking about 'trademarks' of course. Giving credit doesn't require the artist's name, only that you give proper respect to the cards. Problem is that it's NORMALLY seen as requiring the name.
But Under the Spectrum system, my creation, all it would need is a sufficient CIVICS rating. In this case, forgotten graphics could be tolerated as 'anynomus' but that would require extensive searching from one or more mods/admins to check for validity then, considering the legal issues of a MODERATE civics level.
And thus, the question being just how big the civics numbers on this site.
Moderate = Requires checking for availability.
Heavy = can bypass fully, assuming the person is showing proper respect.
But… I fear, just how CIVIL is the community, even if was legal?
All forms. That's the real question.
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Post by ZephyrPhantom on Dec 9, 2019 1:11:41 GMT
But Under the Spectrum system, my creation, all it would need is a sufficient CIVICS rating. In this case, forgotten graphics could be tolerated as 'anynomus' but that would require extensive searching from one or more mods/admins to check for validity then, considering the legal issues of a MODERATE civics level.
From what I understand, you're essentially trying to suggest a perk-based rule that lets people use art without giving credit, as a perk that will allow them to use "forgotten" art. I can understand that you are doing this to reward people for using obscure art as a forum game rule, or perhaps as a modification to the existing site's rules. However, lawyers don't care about forum game rules or even about what kind of freedoms this site might grant - they care about real life laws. They care about proper attribution of intellectual property, and making it clear that people who don't abide by these rules will face appropriate consequences. Said consequences happened to the Shards of Equestria fan project in 2012, and while other applications such as Cockatrice have managed to endure legal battles, Hasbro has made it explicitly clear that they do not take misuse of MtG lightly. In short, the rule to attribute an artist is not about being uncivil or mean to you. It's to show WoTC that we respect intellectual property law and that people won't take say, Peter Mohrbacher's arts and run around claiming them as their own. You are still welcome to post the cards here in text-only format, with other images, or even the ones you originally used - but we respectfully ask that you credit the artists, if you use art. If you're having trouble with finding sources for art, I highly recommend TinEye or Google Reverse Image Search. |
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reizon
0/0 Germ
Against the fracking graphics law.
Posts: 29
Color Alignment: Blue, Red, Green
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Post by reizon on Dec 9, 2019 2:54:48 GMT
It's uncivil in the fact that not every picture HAS an artist, along with the older more forgotten pictures.
POTENTIAL dictates fair treatment for just about everything, and to deny anything isn't FAIR.
Ethics... would complain about Trademarks and copyrights. However, all you need is PROPER RESPECT.
The compromise: "If the graphic has an known author, credit is due"
THIS is fair, and by far more civil. So there.
But it would he hell to search for such claims, so I wouldn't blame you on ground of MORALS for refusing.
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Post by fluffydeathbringer on Dec 9, 2019 4:19:18 GMT
it kinda undermines your whole attempt to make the meaniehead mods feel bad for not letting you break forum rules via passive-aggressive "well FINE, I guess I'll just LEAVE FOREVER" rant when you keep posting after that
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Post by ZephyrPhantom on Dec 9, 2019 6:16:23 GMT
It's uncivil in the fact that not every picture HAS an artist, along with the older more forgotten pictures.
POTENTIAL dictates fair treatment for just about everything, and to deny anything isn't FAIR.
Ethics... would complain about Trademarks and copyrights. However, all you need is PROPER RESPECT.
The compromise: "If the graphic has an known author, credit is due"
THIS is fair, and by far more civil. So there.
But it would he hell to search for such claims, so I wouldn't blame you on ground of MORALS for refusing.
If a picture does not have an artist, then who drew it? Would a lawyer representing WOTC (or your big company of choice) respect someone who is taking WoTC pictures and distributing them without saying if the pictures belonged to WoTC? Regardless of whether it's moral or not, it's practical to avoid legal disputes as they cost time and money to everyone involved. |
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Post by Lady Mapi on Dec 9, 2019 6:43:43 GMT
Hi reizon, sad to hear your unhappy with our forum rules - however please note those are a legal requirement for our website. I know there are places out there that don't care about these things - but we do. And for that reason there have been (and most likely will never be) any plans to loosen up on those rules. ~Daij_Djan
Legal issues... Your talking about 'trademarks' of course. Giving credit doesn't require the artist's name, only that you give proper respect to the cards. Problem is that it's NORMALLY seen as requiring the name.
But Under the Spectrum system, my creation, all it would need is a sufficient CIVICS rating. In this case, forgotten graphics could be tolerated as 'anynomus' but that would require extensive searching from one or more mods/admins to check for validity then, considering the legal issues of a MODERATE civics level.
And thus, the question being just how big the civics numbers on this site.
Moderate = Requires checking for availability.
Heavy = can bypass fully, assuming the person is showing proper respect.
But… I fear, just how CIVIL is the community, even if was legal?
All forms. That's the real question.
Hold up for a second. If I'm reading you correctly, you think that a more civil system would be to let your lazy, entitled ass slap "Unknown" on almost every fucking card, while the mods do all the work actually sourcing things? With the additional "fun" bit that they're in a much worse position in terms of tracking down the original source of the image, since most card editors compress the image and block proper reverse image searches? And you want to talk about respect? Whenever you use a piece of art and don't give credit to the artist, you're disrespecting them. If you made the mods, who are all volunteers, do all of your crediting for you, you're disrespecting them. If you don't show cards "proper respect"... it doesn't matter, because they're fucking inanimate objects. Cut the "CIVIL" and "CIVICS" crap, because it's pretty obvious that you're in no position to lecture other people on that topic. |
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Post by Jéské Couriano on Dec 9, 2019 8:58:46 GMT
Legal issues... Your talking about 'trademarks' of course. Giving credit doesn't require the artist's name, only that you give proper respect to the cards. Problem is that it's NORMALLY seen as requiring the name.
But Under the Spectrum system, my creation, all it would need is a sufficient CIVICS rating. In this case, forgotten graphics could be tolerated as 'anynomus' but that would require extensive searching from one or more mods/admins to check for validity then, considering the legal issues of a MODERATE civics level.
No. They're not talking trademarks; they're talking proper copyright attribution (which for certain licences - namely any Creative Commons licence with the "Attribution" prong - is a legitimate legal requirement). Misattribution is, as far as the law goes, tantamount to plagiarism.
This isn't about showing respect to the cards, it's about showing respect to the people who made the art and making sure that proper credit is given. You're not going to convince me that a trace of Ken Sugimori's or Zoltan Boros' art is legitimately yours. And that's not getting into using fan-art, especially from franchises that consider fanworks to be anathema to be purged in hellfire.
What you suggest looks more like a bad interpretation of Are We Cool Yet? than anything actually sane from a legal standpoint. So answer me this: Are you willing to fork out the funds if the forum gets sued and is forced to move house again? Are you willing to foot the bill for competent legal representation in a copyright case (a bill which can easily go at least 5 digits)? Are you willing to defend MSE in the event Hasbro decides they've had enough of our shit and commands their battle lawyers to alpha-strike us?
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reizon
0/0 Germ
Against the fracking graphics law.
Posts: 29
Color Alignment: Blue, Red, Green
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Post by reizon on Dec 9, 2019 21:33:12 GMT
No, I'm not saying I'm lazy. But the way your talking is definitely uncivil. What I'm saying is that's it's more civil to respect the pictures that have no clear author. It would ONLY be lazy if it's known in the first place.
But the work to find whether a card has an author or not... COULD cost way too much time and effort to say the least, and thus, the MORAL ramifications of such are problematic at the least.
Concerned about money and politics?
I don't blame you. But your living in the current atmosphere. How else could you?
Big news here. What if you could make the reputation of a person be the only currency we need?
currency is just numbers, and if people would just use a RATING system, even the CIVIL ramifications of politics would be doable.
I've come up with such a system, called it 'spectrum' and have been struggling to get it legalized.
So, would you rather back our economy with greed and ignorance?
Or WISDOM?
The choice is yours. I show you the numbers I see... and all your burdens, even the secret ones, get washed away in a maelstrom of ratings.
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kinotherapy
6/6 Wurm
stupid kor i just fell out of the floor
Posts: 322
Favorite Card: Ruthless Raider
Favorite Set: Rising Tides
Color Alignment: Blue, Black, Red
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Post by kinotherapy on Dec 9, 2019 21:43:41 GMT
Imagine spending days drawing a single piece of artwork for your online portfolio only to have it stolen by someone who won't even credit you because they refuse to spend 5 minutes reverse searching it because of MORAL ramifications
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reizon
0/0 Germ
Against the fracking graphics law.
Posts: 29
Color Alignment: Blue, Red, Green
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Post by reizon on Dec 9, 2019 22:09:43 GMT
Imagine spending days drawing a single piece of artwork for your online portfolio only to have it stolen by someone who won't even credit you because they refuse to spend 5 minutes reverse searching it because of MORAL ramifications Imagine pictures not getting the respect they deserve just because they cannot be properly used due to the protocols. Forget the stealing, but the lack of respect even for those pictures, now that's definitely UNCIVIL.
I would gladly add an author.
IF
I knew the author in the first place.
But I DONT.
And don't tell me "Then DONT use them!" - that's UNCIVIL. Give me a CIVIL reason why "unknown" can't be used.
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Post by Daij_Djan on Dec 9, 2019 22:27:21 GMT
Give me a CIVIL reason why "unknown" can't be used. But that's kind of the point: We don't even have to - because this is not about respect, not about being civil or uncivil. Giving proper artist credit is legally required to fulfill copyright laws. We're not the ones making them nor have we any say in changing them - we can either obey those laws or risk getting sued and fined for lots of money - as this has happened to many, many other websites in the past (there literally are whole agencies doing nothing but these kinds of accusations to make money out of the fees).. So no matter where we might stand from a moral standpoint (and at least I personally wouldn't even agree with you there), it just doesn't matter. And this is just about using uncredited artwork in general - not even keeping in mind us not wanting to anger WotC / Hasbro in particular. |
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reizon
0/0 Germ
Against the fracking graphics law.
Posts: 29
Color Alignment: Blue, Red, Green
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Post by reizon on Dec 9, 2019 22:37:39 GMT
Give me a CIVIL reason why "unknown" can't be used. But that's kind of the point: We don't even have to - because this is not about respect, not about being civil or uncivil. Giving proper artist credit is legally required to fulfill copyright laws. We're not the ones making them nor have we any say in changing them - we can either obey those laws or risk getting sued and fined for lots of money - as this has happened to many, many other websites in the past (there literally are whole agencies doing nothing but these kinds of accusations to make money out of the fees).. So no matter where we might stand from a moral standpoint (and at least I personally wouldn't even agree with you there), it just doesn't matter.
I'm BIG on the numbers. It CAN matter.
I have this system known as 'the spectrum'.
You see, numbers can overcome ANY burden. Even legal issues. As long as we show respect in ANY form, that's enough. I show them the civics numbers in the community, liquidating those ratings to them, and *bam* - the pictures get the respect they should be given, even forgotten artists.
So, please - SHOW ME civics. I probably see it already, though.
The issue here is:
Unknown Author
VS
Stealing graphics
What's the CIVIL conclusion?
The moral conclusion:
Too much effort to keep track of the authors.
The ethical conclusion:
Don't steal from the author.
The CIVIL Issue:
I JUST DONT KNOW.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on Dec 9, 2019 23:18:40 GMT
So, please - SHOW ME civics. |
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kebelqwa
0/0 Germ
Enlisting the service of local cryptomancers
Posts: 36
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Post by kebelqwa on Dec 9, 2019 23:27:13 GMT
If you have time to make custom magic cards, You have enough time to give proper artist credit. End of line.
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reizon
0/0 Germ
Against the fracking graphics law.
Posts: 29
Color Alignment: Blue, Red, Green
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Post by reizon on Dec 9, 2019 23:40:23 GMT
If you have time to make custom magic cards, You have enough time to give proper artist credit. End of line.
Well, do you know how many millions of pictures there are on the internet?
It's like finding TWO needles in a haystack. You may be able to see the ones that are presently active, but the older ones are a nightmare.
Edit: and don't tell me about image search... I don't have that program.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on Dec 9, 2019 23:45:11 GMT
If you have time to make custom magic cards, You have enough time to give proper artist credit. End of line.
Well, do you know how many millions of pictures there are on the internet?
It's like finding TWO needles in a haystack. You may be able to see the ones that are presently active, but the older ones are a nightmare.
where are you getting the pictures from that you can't see the artists? most reliable sites like artstation or deviantart have the artist's name right on the site also like, there are lots of tools at your disposal even if DA and AS don't have enough for you or you don't remember where you got the art from. google reverse image search. tineye. if you could find the art, you can find the artist. unless you're like. using art drawn by anonymous sixteenth century monks. |
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Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on Dec 9, 2019 23:55:52 GMT
Edit: and don't tell me about image search... I don't have that program. it's not a program. you don't have to download anything. just google (unless somehow you don't "have that program" either) "google reverse image search" or "tineye." actually, that's what you could have done instead of editing your post. |
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reizon
0/0 Germ
Against the fracking graphics law.
Posts: 29
Color Alignment: Blue, Red, Green
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Post by reizon on Dec 9, 2019 23:55:58 GMT
Well, do you know how many millions of pictures there are on the internet?
It's like finding TWO needles in a haystack. You may be able to see the ones that are presently active, but the older ones are a nightmare.
where are you getting the pictures from that you can't see the artists? most reliable sites like artstation or deviantart have the artist's name right on the site also like, there are lots of tools at your disposal even if DA and AS don't have enough for you or you don't remember where you got the art from. google reverse image search. tineye. if you could find the art, you can find the artist. unless you're like. using art drawn by anonymous sixteenth century monks. It's not a problem with the newer pictures. The problem is not just getting the right programs, but once you find the picture, reversing in the first place. Some websites don't list them, and quite a few products being sold are a clear exception to KNOWN artists.
I'm stuck to using online search engines, and cannot even download new programs without a password I don't even know.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on Dec 9, 2019 23:56:56 GMT
then use... online search engines. like literally everyone else.
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reizon
0/0 Germ
Against the fracking graphics law.
Posts: 29
Color Alignment: Blue, Red, Green
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Post by reizon on Dec 10, 2019 0:02:49 GMT
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Post by Jéské Couriano on Dec 10, 2019 0:03:46 GMT
I'm BIG on the numbers. It CAN matter.
I have this system known as 'the spectrum'.
You see, numbers can overcome ANY burden. Even legal issues. As long as we show respect in ANY form, that's enough. I show them the civics numbers in the community, liquidating those ratings to them, and *bam* - the pictures get the respect they should be given, even forgotten artists.
And speaking as someone on a spectrum themselves, your "system" is a gross insult. Once again, artist attribution is a legal requirement that no amount of "showing respect" can replace. You don't like it? Try to change the laws. But we are not going to adopt a system that puts us or MSE in legal jeopardy for even a split second.
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kebelqwa
0/0 Germ
Enlisting the service of local cryptomancers
Posts: 36
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Post by kebelqwa on Dec 10, 2019 0:10:43 GMT
I think this conversation got off on the wrong foot. I would like to try to explain why people use artist credit when they wouldn't have to in other communities. 1. Artists are credited on images their art appears in. So they are credited for their work 2. By crediting artists for every card in your set, it elevates how seriously people take your set. 3. Artists are credited in actual magic sets. So when you make custom cards they look closer to the real thing than they would without credit I recently published a set called Castes of Siral and I actually had an artists name not show up the card image due to how I pasted the artists name into my mse, I was able to fix that oversight thanks to the keen eyes of other forum users and my set is better for it. I completely understand if you are struggling to find artist credit for art you find on the internet. The secret, is to not search for images on Google. I started out this way as well and when I came to the forums, my first set wasn't even up to the standards required to be considered a completed project. My go to art websites are down below. Hope these help you out. www.artstation.com/www.deviantart.com/cgsociety.org/Also if there is an image in particular that you really want to use, you can reverse google search the image. Follow these steps. 1: Export card image from mse 2: Crop image in paint down to just the art. 3: Save the image and search by image on google. 4: Replace search keywords to artstation or deviantart or another industry website. 5: With luck you should be able to uncover an artists name. |
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Post by Daij_Djan on Dec 10, 2019 0:14:47 GMT
This will be my last post here unless absolutely necessary (a.k.a. when I see a forum rules issue). I've already given the legal reasoning behind our forum rules (and no, your system does not overrule laws - that's not how laws work. And if you want to change those, it's politicans you'd have to adress rather than us) so I should have made our official standpoint clear.
Just wanted to say I just tried using the google image search option on the example card you posted (the Airlock card) and it took me literally ten seconds to find the source: It's a Killzone 4 concept artwork. Sure, you probably won't find all artists as easily as this one, but for the most part it can be done by merely using google image search (and for the more difficult cases we have the Art Clinic I already linked above). However if you want to use the artists work, then you should be the one doing this (and not the mod team). The MSE community has done so successfully for 13 years now - it really is not too much to ask for in my opinion.
EDIT: Actually, after some pondering I decided to indeed lock this thread for good. Everything that is to be said has been said, and further discussion only bears the risk of leading to harsh arguments or potentially even trolling. If anyone feels like they want to continue this argument with new and compelling reasonings, feel free to send me a PM.
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"When in doubt, do a common." 
