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Post by gateways7 on Oct 6, 2019 18:55:36 GMT
How exactly does "Warp" as a mechanic work? Is it just "This spell resolves before other spells on the stack do?" Cards usually try to shy away from mentioning the stack in words, so I'm not sure that this mechanic is the best idea. Also, I'm pretty sure this is still a mono-black counterspell in addition to a creature destruction effect that doesn't do anything (creatures won't enter the battlefield as the spell is resolving, it would be either before or after.) You have a really cool concept here, though, and I love that first line of text.
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Post by uaiop on Oct 6, 2019 19:28:16 GMT
Well, maybe i'm crazy, but i'm pretty confident about this How exactly does "Warp" as a mechanic work? Is it just "This spell resolves before other spells on the stack do?" Cards usually try to shy away from mentioning the stack in words, so I'm not sure that this mechanic is the best idea. Also, I'm pretty sure this is still a mono-black counterspell in addition to a creature destruction effect that doesn't do anything (creatures won't enter the battlefield as the spell is resolving, it would be either before or after.) You have a really cool concept here, though, and I love that first line of text. Ehy thank you. Don't know where this will go, but it's nice to know it could be something "avantgarde" (dont know how to say ahah) The idea is basically that it works as a replacement effect that let you choose to add the spell to whatever other spell might be add to the stack, making it practically uncounterable too. Yeah, for color i think i fix it to black, even if is true blue is behind the corner somehow, but not as much to really splash it. Regarding the stack, do you think is best to change wording or bust it? I think i added "as this spell resolves" to intend exile permanents that entered the battlefield before of course. But reading now, it is confusing because it seems like permanents that entered right as the spell resolves. What first line, by the way?
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Post by Jéské Couriano on Oct 7, 2019 2:24:29 GMT
As long as this card insists on manipulating the stack, it cannot be monoblack. Stack manipulation is with pretty much no exception.
Finally, due to how the stack works, "as this spell resolves" is impossible - and redundant - as writ with the warp ability. The stack operates in order from top to bottom (which, normally, is in Last-In-First-Out order), meaning that no spells can resolve unless and until the top spell on the stack resolves fully. (The only time "[...]as this spell/ability resolves" really shows up is in conjunction with abilities that alter where the spell goes - i.e. Buyback and Rebound - or discusses something that is conditional at the time the ability resolves, such as Gilded Drake and Goblin Welder.)
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Post by uaiop on Oct 7, 2019 13:16:27 GMT
As long as this card insists on manipulating the stack, it cannot be monoblack. Stack manipulation is with pretty much no exception.
Finally, due to how the stack works, "as this spell resolves" is impossible - and redundant - as writ with the warp ability. The stack operates in order from top to bottom (which, normally, is in Last-In-First-Out order), meaning that no spells can resolve unless and until the top spell on the stack resolves fully. (The only time "[...]as this spell/ability resolves" really shows up is in conjunction with abilities that alter where the spell goes - i.e. Buyback and Rebound - or discusses something that is conditional at the time the ability resolves, such as Gilded Drake and Goblin Welder.) Very right what you say, that line has been deleted Heavy for me to splash it blue but if that is the case...
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Post by uaiop on Oct 7, 2019 13:22:54 GMT
Attachment Deleteda doubt crossed my mind, maybe it's dumb: let's say one respond with the easiest and most effective scenario like a shock on this above its activated ability. this dies, then its ability still resolves, but cannot be sacrificed as text says. The fact is i'm trying to see if this is more efficient or less than i could have tought. Quite costly but easy ability to carry out of situations or not?
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Post by arthurxiv on Oct 7, 2019 13:59:29 GMT
Usually "sacrifice" is in the cost, not in the effect. Here you would just add the mana and then do nothing because the creature is already in the graveyard. (Btw no one will Shock it in response to an ability that is supposed to sacrifice it so you will never meet this problem in-game.)
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Post by uaiop on Oct 7, 2019 17:27:21 GMT
Usually "sacrifice" is in the cost, not in the effect. Here you would just add the mana and then do nothing because the creature is already in the graveyard. (Btw no one will Shock it in response to an ability that is supposed to sacrifice it so you will never meet this problem in-game.) yeah, i noticed after a while that sacrifice would have to be in the cost cause it didnt make much sense at the end (if not maybe from the perspective of not having it in the count of mana) and (to redundantly match that rot away when you're done in the flavour text) Btw no one will Shock it in responseyeah, indeed what a fool in the end, the best idea is to fix it. i'm manic on details
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Post by uaiop on Oct 7, 2019 17:57:31 GMT
Attachment DeletedI put my hands on this a few times, pretty confident about this being the last or something. But i left me unconvinced about the functioning of its mana ability. so i added "this turn or phase" to try cleaning it out because i thought "this turn" only was restrictive and confusing. The fact is: adding mana equal to life loss in a turn does imply adding it with the whole turn implied or it can simply be tapped whenever there's some life lost? (combat damage for example). i wanted this to be the more versatile as possible of course. And if one says "this phase" i think of the end of said phase, not some step into it
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Post by Jéské Couriano on Oct 7, 2019 23:50:26 GMT
Combat damage explicitly does not use the stack as of M15 rules changes, and is atomic besides (meaning that nothing can be cast or resolve while combat damage is being dealt).
I would word it thus:
This is the best way to do this; Children of Korlis operates in an identical fashion. ( Greven, Predator Captain has a similar ability, but doesn't count here as that is explicitly a static effect intended to always be on as opposed to an activated ability.)
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Post by uaiop on Oct 8, 2019 0:20:56 GMT
Combat damage explicitly does not use the stack as of M15 rules changes, and is atomic besides (meaning that nothing can be cast or resolve while combat damage is being dealt).
I would word it thus:
This is the best way to do this; Children of Korlis operates in an identical fashion. ( Greven, Predator Captain has a similar ability, but doesn't count here as that is explicitly a static effect intended to always be on as opposed to an activated ability.) Hi friend Nice examples didn't know about it I have to say you are right about the first wording, but i'm not convinced about those two abilities wording, i Always tend to put the instead clause at the end, but anyway if you tap to add mana equal to the amount you lost this turn you choose when to tap and you could possibly get a large amount if you tap at the end (or second main phase) or a few if you tap after a little loss? And if I got it down correctly does it mean that you cannot add for combat damage loss?
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Post by uaiop on Oct 8, 2019 0:22:52 GMT
By the way your wording is perfect, thanks
P.S. I finally updated Glittervoid, the add of blue was the right choice, no way it could be black only. And it matches the flavour too. I'm noticing how i kind of swinged between black and blue since the beginning mostly. Even Valc -3 stretch to take an extra turn, something that black can do for a loss
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Post by Jéské Couriano on Oct 8, 2019 4:37:35 GMT
I have to say you are right about the first wording, but i'm not convinced about those two abilities wording, i Always tend to put the instead clause at the end, but anyway if you tap to add mana equal to the amount you lost this turn you choose when to tap and you could possibly get a large amount if you tap at the end (or second main phase) or a few if you tap after a little loss? And if I got it down correctly does it mean that you cannot add for combat damage loss? 1 ) Yes, and for the most part players will be more inclined to cast things during the postcombat main phase with this. (On a side note, this can be silly with Upwelling effects.)
2) You can - but you cannot activate the tap ability in responce to combat damage because the combat damage neither uses the stack or is otherwise interruptible in this fashion. You would have to tap at the combat cleanup step (which wastes the mana) or at the start of the postcombat main phase.
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Post by uaiop on Oct 8, 2019 12:35:42 GMT
I have to say you are right about the first wording, but i'm not convinced about those two abilities wording, i Always tend to put the instead clause at the end, but anyway if you tap to add mana equal to the amount you lost this turn you choose when to tap and you could possibly get a large amount if you tap at the end (or second main phase) or a few if you tap after a little loss? And if I got it down correctly does it mean that you cannot add for combat damage loss? 1 ) Yes, and for the most part players will be more inclined to cast things during the postcombat main phase with this. (On a side note, this can be silly with Upwelling effects.)
2) You can - but you cannot activate the tap ability in responce to combat damage because the combat damage neither uses the stack or is otherwise interruptible in this fashion. You would have to tap at the combat cleanup step (which wastes the mana) or at the start of the postcombat main phase. Really nice insight, you seem very knowledgeable (not to take over in the sense of doubting about other users ahah) upwelling broken combination
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Post by Jéské Couriano on Oct 10, 2019 20:46:33 GMT
Considering that you have to lose life in order to use it, this isn't as broken as you think with Upwelling. You would need some way to gain enough life to offset what you lose.
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Post by uaiop on Oct 10, 2019 21:29:22 GMT
well yes
but can someone tap The Vault and waiting the Whole turn to fill the mana add? (with Upwelling on the battlefield)
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Post by Jéské Couriano on Oct 10, 2019 21:55:49 GMT
well yes but can someone tap The Vault and waiting the Whole turn to fill the mana add? (with Upwelling on the battlefield) Could you please reword it? I can't glean anything of import from that.
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Post by uaiop on Oct 10, 2019 22:35:39 GMT
no prob
i was thinking if someone could tap The Vault and letting it fill with mana from all life loss of the turn...but thats dumb as fuck ahah because mana empties...but with Upwelling under your control it may be different
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Post by Jéské Couriano on Oct 10, 2019 23:43:44 GMT
no prob i was thinking if someone could tap The Vault and letting it fill with mana from all life loss of the turn...but thats dumb as fuck ahah because mana empties...but with Upwelling under your control it may be different Not really. Upwelling is green; the mana that Vault produces is black. Thus the immediate assumption is you're running at least Golgari colours ( ).
It goes without saying that black mana can't pay the bills for spells and abilities that require green mana.
And again, it's stupid powerful with Upwelling - but not broken. You would need to have some form of recursive lifegain that allows you to heal as much as the life you lose per turn, ideally a form that doesn't eat a chunk out of the mana you got from the Vault (so no Stream of Life or Drain Life or Taste of Paradise).
(As an aside, why has Taste not been errata'd to have multikicker yet? The card functions in an identical manner.)
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Post by uaiop on Oct 10, 2019 23:47:33 GMT
ye sure you need some life gain in all cases when playing a land like that or other cards from the bunch i made (i tested it myself)
so suicidary
anyway having both can let you use your mana throughout your entire turn and turns if you need
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Post by Jéské Couriano on Oct 10, 2019 23:49:40 GMT
anyway having both can let you use your mana throughout your entire turn and turns if you need This is true with Upwelling and any mass-mana-generation card (such as Tolarian Academy, Braid of Fire, or Black Market). Upwelling's not as useful without massive mana generation.
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