Fermat
8/8 Octopus
Posts: 436
Favorite Card: Force of Will
Favorite Set: Guildpact (set when I started playing)
Color Alignment: White, Blue, Black
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Post by Fermat on Sept 28, 2022 22:09:57 GMT
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Post by BinaryBolas on Sept 29, 2022 0:47:43 GMT
The wording now has no problem mechanically, though I suggest combine the 1st and the 2nd paragraph into the same one so that the "its owner's next upkeep" clause won't be misleading. (This change makes it a delayed trigger, which is better to comprehend) |
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Post by BinaryBolas on Sept 29, 2022 1:43:20 GMT
hydraheadhunter: Yet shouldn't the gender-specific negative terms exist to remind us NOT to make the same mistakes again? As I mentioned before, I think that we are not there (where true neutrality, equality happens among our society) yet, and therefore these sexuality biased terms exist for they show that the biase is still there. The fact that Gary/Tom Sue comes later than Mary Sue is kind of an unfortunate accident. The different terms of Distressed Girls (Damsels) and Distressed Dudes shows that "The prince rescues the beauty" is a classic trope that lazy writers keep using them without altering anything, while "The badass heroine rescues the Robin" is either a lazy reflection of the previous trope or a trope that few writers come up (the usage of which will only grows as we go, thanks to the improvements of our society). The difference in their definitions (Dudes may be able to fake their distress) shows that the problem exists in works of early times or from Innocently Insensitive authors. In my mind, when we use Damsel negatively, it's a helpful warning (at least some of us will point out) that this is lame and uninspired and potentially sexist. sdfkjgh: Of course many of them are portrayed as a Sue, since early religious or mythos would intend the audience (or listeners) to have 100% faith in the godhood: The perfection in their supreme watcher above is not to be questioned. The problem at hand is that so many modern fan fics (as you mentioned) have plots rotate around their Sue protagonist that it becomes a phenomenon, and hence the term. (Yes, since female Sue comes first, Gary becomes a sister term to Mary). A Sue protag would only be regarded as lazy writing since a flawed (or spinach-induced) character is a more convincing and refined one. These characters are supposed to feel real and fresh instead of being a deity to be worshipped.
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spazlaz
6/6 Wurm
Posts: 335
Color Alignment: Blue, Black
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Post by spazlaz on Sept 29, 2022 1:48:50 GMT
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Post by hydraheadhunter on Sept 29, 2022 10:14:35 GMT
hydraheadhunter : Yet shouldn't the gender-specific negative terms exist to remind us NOT to make the same mistakes again? As I mentioned before, I think that we are not there (where true neutrality, equality happens among our society) yet, and therefore these sexuality biased terms exist for they show that the biase is still there. The thing I find silly isn't any analysis of how gender causes a trope to be treated differently, because girl damsels and boy damsels are treated differently by the author, story, audience, and etc; but the insistance that we not call a boy damsel "a damsel" because 'damseling is a trope for girls.' Artificially segregating the trope into a boy trope and a girl tropes subtlely reinforces the trope's current use, because if you by virtue of damseling a boy aren't damseling a character then the only characters that can ever be damselled are girl characters.
We can absolutely have a discussion of how girl damsels are more common and more often treated as agencyless objects by the narative compared to boy damsels, and that's a discussion we should have. But I think its more useful to descriptively frame that discussion as a difference in application of the same singular trope (driven by a social bias) rather than esscentialistically frame that dicussion around pretending that the difference in treatment arises from authors using two fundementally different tropes.
The former forces the people in the discussion to look at how the difference arrises from choices made when applying the trope while the latter allows people to escape the responsibility of their decisions by saying, "well that's how this trope is done: if I did it differently, it'd be this other trope." They're_the_same_trope.jpg
In my mind, when we use Damsel negatively, it's a helpful warning (at least some of us will point out) that this is lame and uninspired and potentially sexist. Furthermore, I don't think damselling is into and of itself a bad trope: I don't think bad tropes exist and that there are only examples of tropes being used badly. Tropes are tools, not value judgements and saying "This character gets damselled" shouldn't be a critique of the text but a value neutral description of the text to build critique upon: eg, "the way this character is damselled [plays well into the characters themes | undermines the characters narative arc | is an inspired reimagining of the trope | is a tired rehash of the same old damsel bullshit | etc]," because what I want at least isn't fewer damsels (well maybe a couple fewer, it's a well worne trope) but newly reimagined, more interesting damsels (some of whom are boys), yeah?
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Post by BinaryBolas on Sept 29, 2022 11:06:15 GMT
hydraheadhunter: (I hope my previous replies are healthy exchanges of thoughts instead of potential arguments out of frustration) I can't feel but notice that some English words are exclusively made for female situations, like damsel. The archive of words, either into dictionaries or into wiki-style websites, is finished by a small group of people rather than the public, some more professional or representative than others. Though, totally agree with you about the silliness of segragration of archived terms for tropes. The fact that right now we are trying to de-sexualize the phrases in question means we are going in the correct direction. I almost always don't assume genders when using these words when I try to comment on shows or movies. We can only wise as time goes by the professionals or wikipedia entry editors will decide that they can do that, too. Also, tropes are tools, true. I don't seperate the tropes entirely from the plot to analyze them. Even bad tropes can be implemented in a plot right (satire, Rick and Morty, for instance). I do need to explain myself that when I said the trope is used "negatively", I describe the circumstances of lazy writing or plotting gone wrong, where cliche tropes are easy to identify and to blame. Sometimes cliche tropes and medium plots are fine if it's only played for fun or excitement. If your fighting sequence is epic and badass, no one cares if it's a white military dude rescuing a captured white blonde woman. Well, someone cares.
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Post by hydraheadhunter on Sept 29, 2022 18:27:27 GMT
I hope my previous replies are healthy exchanges of thoughts instead of potential arguments out of frustration Yeah, you're not coming across to me as frustrated. We're having an interesting discussion. I can't feel but notice that some English words are exclusively made for female situations, like damsel. The archive of words, either into dictionaries or into wiki-style websites, is finished by a small group of people rather than the public, some more professional or representative than others. You're right that damsel, like many other words originates from gender, but because language is fluid, it's original definition, "a young unmarried woman," has shifted towards connotation with the denotation shifting toward "political prisoner of significant importance to the hero of a story." Though, totally agree with you about the silliness of segragration of archived terms for tropes. The fact that right now we are trying to de-sexualize the phrases in question means we are going in the correct direction. I almost always don't assume genders when using these words when I try to comment on shows or movies. We can only wise as time goes by the professionals or wikipedia entry editors will decide that they can do that, too. Yeah, I'm just kvetching about a niche qualm I have with TVTropes at this point, and if I really cared enough to do more than kvetch I'd look into actually structurally editing the site.
Also, tropes are tools, true. I don't seperate the tropes entirely from the plot to analyze them. Even bad tropes can be implemented in a plot right (satire, Rick and Morty, for instance). I do need to explain myself that when I said the trope is used "negatively", I describe the circumstances of lazy writing or plotting gone wrong, where cliche tropes are easy to identify and to blame. Sometimes cliche tropes and medium plots are fine if it's only played for fun or excitement. If your fighting sequence is epic and badass, no one cares if it's a white military dude rescuing a captured white All good. Personally I think epic badass fight scenes and spectical are a both bit played out at the moment and what we really need more of in media are smaller scale sincere emotional scenes with personal stakes of reasonable size. That's my take anyway, I'm just exhausted from the bohmbastic noisy action scene arms-race marvel-disney is having with itself, and I just want movies that make me feel something about the one thing on screen instead of zoning out because I can't focus on all the thousands of things on the screen at once. But that's just my opinion.
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vstrange
1/1 Squirrel
Resurrecting the dead, D.N.D.
Posts: 52
Formerly Known As: Lich Puppy
Favorite Card: Ur-Dragon
Favorite Set: Ikoria
Color Alignment: Black, Green
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Post by vstrange on Sept 30, 2022 0:48:05 GMT
The trope i'm going for is Fate worse then death  |
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Post by Idea on Sept 30, 2022 11:46:31 GMT
The trope i'm going for is Fate worse then death  As someone who just finished watching the second season of Made in Abyss, this one hits me hard. |
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Post by sdfkjgh on Sept 30, 2022 15:27:48 GMT
vstrange: You're missing "Enchant creature", which should have its own line, and come before Indestructible.
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Post by marshmellow on Oct 1, 2022 5:16:49 GMT
ft. obligatory chekhov's gun {Spoiler}Arcane Armoury
Conspiracy
(Start the game with this conspiracy face up in the command zone.)
Before the game starts, name a card.
Start the game with five time counters on Arcane Armoury.
At the beginning of your upkeep, remove a time counter from Arcane Armoury. When you remove the last counter, you may search your library for a card with the chosen name, reveal it, and put it in your hand. If you do, shuffle your library. |
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pernicious
8/8 Octopus
Posts: 440
Favorite Card: Mistmeadow Skulk
Favorite Set: Shadowmoor block
Color Alignment: Red
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Post by pernicious on Oct 3, 2022 14:01:34 GMT
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Post by twintania on Oct 3, 2022 20:31:13 GMT
They are very famous Japanese tropes. I don't think this will be awarded, but I couldn't help myself posting this. (This is unfinished. I didn't have enough time to finish it.)   |
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Post by Daij_Djan on Oct 3, 2022 20:53:55 GMT
I'm a bit late to this, since I've been way too busy recently, but I just wanted to confirm it's completely fine to have such discussions here from time to time as long as they're held in a friendly manner  And yeh, don't worry, if things get too heated up or otherwise out of hand, I'll gladly switch to this color and let you all know. 
This thread is now closed, the poll can be found here. And here's the next challenge! |
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"When in doubt, do a common."