galva94
2/2 Zombie
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Post by galva94 on Aug 7, 2020 22:44:16 GMT
I'm struggling to find the right wording for this ability:
Mudborn (You may pay an additional [1][B/U] as you cast this spell. If you do, create a 2/2 black Orc creature token.)
I want the token to create before the actual effect of the spell, to enable something like this:
Mudborn (You may pay an additional 1U/B as you cast this spell. If you do, create a 2/2 black Orc creature token.)
Destroy target creature if its power is less than or equal to the number of creatures you control.
Initially I thought of
Mudborn (When you cast this spell, you may pay an additional [1][B/U]. If you do, create a 2/2 black Orc creature token.)
but i don't like the fact that this generates a triggered ability: feels counterintuitive to spend a counterspell on this, and countering only half of the spell.
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galva94
2/2 Zombie
Posts: 123
Favorite Card: Cryptic Command
Favorite Set: Kamigawa
Color Alignment: Blue, Green
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Post by galva94 on Feb 7, 2021 13:00:30 GMT
For example I need to know if the following works as one expect. If not, please suggest me the right wording to make the token happens before the actual card text!  |
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Post by cajun on Feb 7, 2021 17:52:18 GMT
Spell effect.
Mudborn (You may pay an additional 1U/B to cast this spell. If you did, create a 2/2 black Orc creature token.)
or
Spell effect.
Mudborn (Then create a 2/2 black Orc creature token if you spent an additional 1U/B to cast this spell.)
or... just Kicker
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galva94
2/2 Zombie
Posts: 123
Favorite Card: Cryptic Command
Favorite Set: Kamigawa
Color Alignment: Blue, Green
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Post by galva94 on Feb 8, 2021 19:04:49 GMT
Spell effect.
Mudborn (You may pay an additional 1U/B to cast this spell. If you did, create a 2/2 black Orc creature token.)
or
Spell effect.
Mudborn (Then create a 2/2 black Orc creature token if you spent an additional 1U/B to cast this spell.) But I want the token to happen before. I guess the first suggestion works, though. Is "did" the right wording, instead of "do"? |
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jverse
3/3 Beast
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Post by jverse on Feb 8, 2021 22:52:27 GMT
You know, thinking about this some more, I think your original wording of the mechanic is actually OK. Because the cost and effect occur AS you cast the spell, they both occur before it goes on the stack. Then it resolves after, so I think you're good to go!
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jverse
3/3 Beast
Posts: 195
Favorite Card: Animar, Soul of Elements
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Post by jverse on Feb 8, 2021 22:55:26 GMT
You're also right that even if it gets countered you still get the token, but I kind of like that actually. It's always a feel bad situation whenever you get countered and anything that lessens the blow is an improvement.
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galva94
2/2 Zombie
Posts: 123
Favorite Card: Cryptic Command
Favorite Set: Kamigawa
Color Alignment: Blue, Green
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Post by galva94 on Feb 9, 2021 8:21:28 GMT
You're also right that even if it gets countered you still get the token, but I kind of like that actually. It's always a feel bad situation whenever you get countered and anything that lessens the blow is an improvement. I'm pretty sure that with my current wording (the one of the rendered card) you don't get the token if the spell is countered, because it works as kicker (almost exactly the same wording, actually) so the whole spell is countered, which is what I want. |
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jverse
3/3 Beast
Posts: 195
Favorite Card: Animar, Soul of Elements
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Post by jverse on Feb 9, 2021 22:59:29 GMT
You're also right that even if it gets countered you still get the token, but I kind of like that actually. It's always a feel bad situation whenever you get countered and anything that lessens the blow is an improvement. I'm pretty sure that with my current wording (the one of the rendered card) you don't get the token if the spell is countered, because it works as kicker (almost exactly the same wording, actually) so the whole spell is countered, which is what I want. Not exactly. The wording may be the same, but the token creation happens along with the casting cost, regardless of the spell's effects. That's good news for creature interactions, which is what you wanted. However, it doesn't work the way you want with counter spells. On a kicker card, there is always text that says "if you paid the kicker cost, effect". It usually comes at the end of the card, so counterspells would apply. Yours don't, as far as I can tell. |
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Post by lanceverbatim on Feb 10, 2021 4:10:57 GMT
"If you do, create a 2/2 black orc creature token as this spell resolves."
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jverse
3/3 Beast
Posts: 195
Favorite Card: Animar, Soul of Elements
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Color Alignment: Blue, Red, Green
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Post by jverse on Feb 10, 2021 7:34:45 GMT
Yeah, that should take care of it.
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galva94
2/2 Zombie
Posts: 123
Favorite Card: Cryptic Command
Favorite Set: Kamigawa
Color Alignment: Blue, Green
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Post by galva94 on Feb 10, 2021 20:40:27 GMT
"If you do, create a 2/2 black orc creature token as this spell resolves." That still doesn't solve the problem: I want the creature token to appeare before the actual spell effect EDIT: anyway, there should be no way that the spell being countered still leaves the token back. The token is not generated by a triggered ability (no "when" "whenever" or similar keys), so the stack should only see the card itself. So I reckon that this text should work: Mudborn (You may pay an additional [1][B/U] as you cast this spell. If you do, create a 2/2 black Orc creature token.)
Or alternatively Mudborn (You may pay an additional [1][B/U] as you cast this spell. If you did, create a 2/2 black Orc creature token.)
Not sure if is "did" or "do". By the way I decided to update the cost to   to have more decision when casting the spell and not always wait for the "better" version |
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jverse
3/3 Beast
Posts: 195
Favorite Card: Animar, Soul of Elements
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Post by jverse on Feb 10, 2021 21:00:27 GMT
"If you do, create a 2/2 black orc creature token as this spell resolves." That still doesn't solve the problem: I want the creature token to appeare before the actual spell effect I think it does. Card effects occur in the order they are written, so the token should be created first. Then whatever the spell's other effects are will occur as normal. |
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galva94
2/2 Zombie
Posts: 123
Favorite Card: Cryptic Command
Favorite Set: Kamigawa
Color Alignment: Blue, Green
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Post by galva94 on Feb 11, 2021 8:07:25 GMT
I think it does. Card effects occur in the order they are written, so the token should be created first. Then whatever the spell's other effects are will occur as normal. In cards with rebound, for example Distortion Strike, it says "exile it as resolves" meaning "after the effect of the card take place", so I guess that the wording you are suggesting will work in the same way: First the spell resolves, destroying a creature with power less bla bla, then a creature token is created. Am I wrong? |
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jverse
3/3 Beast
Posts: 195
Favorite Card: Animar, Soul of Elements
Favorite Set: Shadowmoor
Color Alignment: Blue, Red, Green
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Post by jverse on Feb 12, 2021 3:09:49 GMT
I doubt there are any rebound cards that reference the effect they cause, so it doesn't really matter whether they are exiled before or after the card effects occur. You can always write your own rules if there are none existing in the design space you want to use. I think you'd be well within the limits of the rules text if you chose to use your mudborn mechanic in the way you want to (with the wording that was suggested). If any other rules czar wants to chime in, please do.
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Post by hydraheadhunter on Feb 12, 2021 8:16:43 GMT
Your best bet is to template it similar to the way Extort is templated, so you get a trigger that happens when you cast rather than an additional effect in the resolution. First the trigger resolves, then the card resolves. Mudborn (When you cast this spell, you may pay 1 Generic and a Black or Blue. If you do create a 2/2 black orc.) |
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galva94
2/2 Zombie
Posts: 123
Favorite Card: Cryptic Command
Favorite Set: Kamigawa
Color Alignment: Blue, Green
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Post by galva94 on Feb 12, 2021 12:13:03 GMT
Your best bet is to template it similar to the way Extort is templated, so you get a trigger that happens when you cast rather than an additional effect in the resolution. First the trigger resolves, then the card resolves. Mudborn (When you cast this spell, you may pay 1 Generic and a Black or Blue. If you do create a 2/2 black orc.) This generates a trigger ability, which I don't want to happen, though... I think I fallback to the original wording, pretending that works as I intended  |
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galva94
2/2 Zombie
Posts: 123
Favorite Card: Cryptic Command
Favorite Set: Kamigawa
Color Alignment: Blue, Green
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Post by galva94 on Feb 12, 2021 23:25:09 GMT
Anyway, I'm not totally satisfied with the name of this mechanic. It was a proxy name that ended up being the definitive name. You guys have any suggestions? Something like Recruit, Overrun, Foray... Any idea, really
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