Post by tarvoc on Apr 5, 2018 15:13:47 GMT
This is a mirror of my opening post in the Wedges of Rath: Another try thread over on the old board.
Hey guys,
I'm not sure if this thread fits here. Unfortunately, there isn't really a forum for discussing (or just reminiscing about) custom sets and projects that were around years ago. I'm absolutely not sure if it's a good idea to take this up again, but hear me out.
The upcoming release of Dominaria has sparked a bit of nostalgia for my early days of Magic again (I started playing around the time of Weatherlight). As a result, I've looked at the set file of the old Fragments of Rath community project (discussion and design thread here, release announcement here) again recently. I don't want to necro the old threads though, so I'm opening a new one.
What I've noticed about Fragments of Rath is that even in its 1.23 version, it still has severe issues. It bugs me a lot, because I was rather active in this project, and I think many of its issues are my fault to a degree. I understand why it was not well liked - Neottolemo, who was also involved in the project back then, even went so far as to say he hates it. Personally, I don't hate it, I even feel a certain nostalgia for it - the first custom set I ever finished (aside from my own first Core Set from 2013, which was utterly bad). I think we had a few interesting ideas back then. In retrospect though, I think it were precisely my ideas that caused most of the issues of the set. I am probably simply not a good designer. As I see it, the wedges with the least issues are Dega and Ceta, and they're also the ones to which I contributed the least.
I would like to identify the issues and possibly fix them, maybe overhauling the set or starting from scratch, and I would be interested to know if you guys would be interested in helping me.
Here are some first thoughts:
* Surface. It has often been pointed out that "is put into your graveyard from your library" doesn't need to be keyworded. I still like the idea behind it, and it works quite well with the flavor we were going for with Ana. Of course, it also has some other issues as well, like being fairly impractical. If I proposed this mechanic today, I would define it as "a card surfaces when it is revealed (from your library) or put into your graveyard from your library". This change makes it more flexible to various uses and kinds of card interactions. Surface is one of the mechanics that I would like to keep in some fashion, but I admit it has issues that need to be resolved somehow.
* Retribute. This is another example of a mechanic with an idea behind it that fits well with the flavor of Raka, but that is rather impractical. I'm not sure how to fix it though. I hesitate to say that I like it, precisely because it's so impractical... but it was kind of a pet idea of mine back then, so I guess my feeling towards it is still colored by nostalgia.
* Slivers. I don't think including them was my idea, but I'm not entirely sure any more - but that's beside the point, because either way, I still agreed to their inclusion. They don't fit into the set. There is far too little support for them. I realize Slivers are an important part of Rath's flavor, but I also simply don't like this creature type any more (particularly because I don't like tribal at all any more). In retrospect, I should have spoken out against their inclusion.
* Spikes. Once more, they are an important part of Rath's flavor. The problem with their inclusion is that they don't fit well into a wedge set. Spikes are pretty much mono-:gmana:, with only a single :bmana: one. We pretty much built Necra around them. That was a mistake, as were :wmana: Spikes, not to mention Spike tokens (!). In retrospect, I would still include them, but only in :gmana: or maybe :bmana:, but I'd spread them out across Necra, Ceta and Ana, and make Necra's main theme something else (it could still be related to +1/+1 counters though).
I wonder if the idea behind the set can be salvaged, and if there is even interest in trying again. As I mentioned above, this set is hated, and I realize it's hated for a reason.
Essentially, I want to see if I can make the idea behind this set work. But it was a community project back then, so I want to invite the community to help me once more. This will also help me see if there is even interest in this.
Also, if you were involved in the project back then, or even just noticed the set in some way or fashion, I would like to hear what you think of it today.
Hey guys,
I'm not sure if this thread fits here. Unfortunately, there isn't really a forum for discussing (or just reminiscing about) custom sets and projects that were around years ago. I'm absolutely not sure if it's a good idea to take this up again, but hear me out.
The upcoming release of Dominaria has sparked a bit of nostalgia for my early days of Magic again (I started playing around the time of Weatherlight). As a result, I've looked at the set file of the old Fragments of Rath community project (discussion and design thread here, release announcement here) again recently. I don't want to necro the old threads though, so I'm opening a new one.
What I've noticed about Fragments of Rath is that even in its 1.23 version, it still has severe issues. It bugs me a lot, because I was rather active in this project, and I think many of its issues are my fault to a degree. I understand why it was not well liked - Neottolemo, who was also involved in the project back then, even went so far as to say he hates it. Personally, I don't hate it, I even feel a certain nostalgia for it - the first custom set I ever finished (aside from my own first Core Set from 2013, which was utterly bad). I think we had a few interesting ideas back then. In retrospect though, I think it were precisely my ideas that caused most of the issues of the set. I am probably simply not a good designer. As I see it, the wedges with the least issues are Dega and Ceta, and they're also the ones to which I contributed the least.
I would like to identify the issues and possibly fix them, maybe overhauling the set or starting from scratch, and I would be interested to know if you guys would be interested in helping me.
Here are some first thoughts:
* Surface. It has often been pointed out that "is put into your graveyard from your library" doesn't need to be keyworded. I still like the idea behind it, and it works quite well with the flavor we were going for with Ana. Of course, it also has some other issues as well, like being fairly impractical. If I proposed this mechanic today, I would define it as "a card surfaces when it is revealed (from your library) or put into your graveyard from your library". This change makes it more flexible to various uses and kinds of card interactions. Surface is one of the mechanics that I would like to keep in some fashion, but I admit it has issues that need to be resolved somehow.
* Retribute. This is another example of a mechanic with an idea behind it that fits well with the flavor of Raka, but that is rather impractical. I'm not sure how to fix it though. I hesitate to say that I like it, precisely because it's so impractical... but it was kind of a pet idea of mine back then, so I guess my feeling towards it is still colored by nostalgia.
* Slivers. I don't think including them was my idea, but I'm not entirely sure any more - but that's beside the point, because either way, I still agreed to their inclusion. They don't fit into the set. There is far too little support for them. I realize Slivers are an important part of Rath's flavor, but I also simply don't like this creature type any more (particularly because I don't like tribal at all any more). In retrospect, I should have spoken out against their inclusion.
* Spikes. Once more, they are an important part of Rath's flavor. The problem with their inclusion is that they don't fit well into a wedge set. Spikes are pretty much mono-:gmana:, with only a single :bmana: one. We pretty much built Necra around them. That was a mistake, as were :wmana: Spikes, not to mention Spike tokens (!). In retrospect, I would still include them, but only in :gmana: or maybe :bmana:, but I'd spread them out across Necra, Ceta and Ana, and make Necra's main theme something else (it could still be related to +1/+1 counters though).
I wonder if the idea behind the set can be salvaged, and if there is even interest in trying again. As I mentioned above, this set is hated, and I realize it's hated for a reason.
Essentially, I want to see if I can make the idea behind this set work. But it was a community project back then, so I want to invite the community to help me once more. This will also help me see if there is even interest in this.
Also, if you were involved in the project back then, or even just noticed the set in some way or fashion, I would like to hear what you think of it today.
and 
into that premise seems like a challenge altogether. I would like to try though. 
: Target player puts the top card of his or her library into his or her graveyard. If a land card surfaces, untap Cephalid Mindbreaker.
